Furious moment Tory & Labour chiefs rip each other apart in fiery clash over taxes

Furious moment Tory & Labour chiefs rip each other apart in fiery clash over taxes

this is a progressive tax cut this is cutting 2 tax this is a this is a tax for people of work age in the old days the labor party used to sign up for working people it doesn’t do that anymore it’s not interested in readers are getting absolutely sque under why won’t you back why won’t you back it Johnson hello and welcome to a special local elections never mind the ballots with me Harry Cole the ballots are actually still being counted but we’ll bring you the latest on a bloody night for the Tories [Music] well only one side is smiling this morning labor the government are taking a pounding today as the results begin piling in and the Tories are on course to lose hundreds of their local counselors labor romped home in the Blackpool byelection the Tories only managed to avoid a humiliating third place finish by a handful of votes across brexit voting areas like Sunderland reform of been bashing the Tories though handing labor victories by doing so but despite the headlines there are warning signs for labor too as the greens and Independence seem to be soaring in areas where large amounts of Muslim voters appear to want to punish starma over his perceived support for Israel however experts say these are the sort of gains a party on course to form a comfortable majority would be clocking up all eyes now on whether Rich sunak can avoid his party having a collective breakdown as a result let’s find out now joining me are two incredibly sleep deprived politicians Tory party chairman Richard Holden labor pay Shadow pay Master General John Ashworth uh guys how much sleep have you had uh hardly any about an hour an hour good well thank you for twice that much so Richard it’s been a disastrous night for the government it’s game over isn’t it it’s been really tough but I think it’s not game over at all I think it’s game on we’ve still got a lot of election results uh to go we’ve still got to see what’s happening in the maril still a lot of pccs to go two-thirds of the councils to go let’s have a let’s see uh until all the ballots are counted as you said exactly what the results end up being John Curtis says this is as close to catastrophic as you can get and the worst results Tories are on the worst results for 40 years on this part I mean we coming off very good results in 2021 where after 11 years in office we’d gained a load of votes and a load of seats that’s quite true this is the fifth byelection in a row that labor have got 20 know I’m not I’m not denying that I’m just talking about the local elections uh more generally you know we did have a very good result in 21 when we gained seats after 11 years in power including plac like Durham which label us for the first time in 102 years in these uh 20 you know 2021 elections so it looks like we’re going to come off that uh quite a lot but you know not a good night for the conservatives uh you know a lot of my Council colleagues have been out there campaigning with you know it’s going to be very uh tough on them as well but we’ve still got some big results to go and some some big challenges uh for labor as part of that as well it’s not it’s not midterm anymore it’s 5 to midnight how you you’ve got a matter of weeks possibly or months to turn this around the nation is is clearly crying out for change what are you going to do about it well I look I think what’s actually you know we look let’s look at the a lot of the votes today we saw Blackpool a you know dramatically lower turnout than uh we’ve had in a general election now in the runup to say 1997 you actually saw turnouts which were a lot you know quite close to general election level turnouts you saw labor with a you a lower number of votes than they had previous does that worry that your voters don’t want to come out no that that does worry me a lot Harry and it also worries me that uh people are voting for reform which is just another way of letting uh K into Downing Street that’s one of the reasons we’re pushing so hard on our policies like the Rwanda plan to have a really effective deterr on the line we discuss that in a minute John Ashworth talking about Downing Street yeah your boy measuring the curtain yet no most certainly not most certainly not I mean you can tell Rich you can tell Rich has been asleep because he doesn’t quite seem to want to wake up to the hiding the stories have had in the last 24 hours I mean that result in Blackpool is remarkable it Sparkles as bright as blackpool’s illuminations the 26 you been practicing that it is his nickname it certainly is but um a 26% swing to labor in a seat that we absolutely have to win uh come a general election is a remarkable result and I think people are saying after 14 years of the Tories 14 years of Decline and failure that it is time for change we’ve seen that in Blackpool we’ve seen it in Council I mean the Garrison town of old a shot has elected the the the the local Authority IA there Rush has gone labor what a stunning result that is good news in in the South there is it peterb was a bit disappoined for labor har har I mean har your leader was there four days ago labor gains in har though la G they they didn’t take control there did they uh no and we like have taken control control you did AR you w in control of har under under millerand and cor but we’ve taken we’ve taken gains there in harow we’ve taken gains in pet gains in Plymouth Johnny Mercer is in big trouble on those results in Plymouth uh in uh tonight or or last night I should say so important gains in key seats across thork thork we lost the thork constituency in 2010 we’ve had the leader of the former Tory leader of Thor Council on the media uh uh this morning kicking putting the boot in to the Tory party so disappointed at the loss there labor has made huge gains in thurk uh in these sets of results that’s really really hav been making there is some interesting results in Newcastle especially in Olden um experts saying tonight this morning that actually in areas of high density Muslim populations the labor vote is going backwards what do you attribute that to I think I mean I represent an incredibly diverse part of the country very proud to represent Leicester which is very diverse and I know from speaking to my own Muslim constituents that there is hurt there is anger that they feel that there ought to be a greater expression in Parliament across the board for their desire to see an immediate ceasefire in Gaza for their desire to see humanitarian relief get into Gaza and for people to speak out on what is happening in that part of the world so I totally understand why people are hurting K st’s interview was you know was was you plastered across leaflets did he shot himself in the foot here it was and that that interview has if you like been weaponized even though it’s clear when you watch the interview that he’s making a different point to the way in which it is being uh present Ed look and in my own pch in Leicester the the Leicester green party were putting out leaflets quoting verses from the Quran uh saying that the sort of the you know you should support the green party because that’s in tune with Islamic values the the green party have made a very very direct link on using the Quran to make the case for their election in Leicester we’ll see if that’s had any impact in Leicester when we get our Police Commissioner result lat today but I’d be interested to see if that type of leaflet has gone out in these other parts of the country question for you both and Richard go first and and then John exactly same question ideally why are as many formator voters going to reform as they are going to labor you’re you’ve got a big problem on your right flank haven’t you uh look I mean we we we I I don’t underplay the issue that we’re facing um I would want to address the issues and concerns that those people who considering voting reform what are what do you think they are I think there a few different areas one is over illegal migration they want to see you’ve been bangging on about illegal migration in Rwanda for days and weeks you’re you’re right Harry and we’ve got to get those flights off as quickly as we can we’ve got 11 weeks now till the end of that deadline the Prime Minister said to get those flights off the ground um we’re determined to do that we’ve got to have that deterrent there um I think the other thing is people have obviously been hit with cost of living issues following you know Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and also why are they why are they going to reform and not labor what well I think well I think because I don’t think they trust labor to deal with those issues uh particularly around illegal immigration I don’t think they trust them on taxation either you know I think the only thing labor about the labor party at the moment while the conservative part is out there cutting taxes for working people doesn’t seem to doesn’t seem to be cutting through keep cut but the PO keep going that and also and we’re also obviously protecting uh the incomes of people who’ve worked hard all their lives in retirement with their triple lock on pensions you know that’s it’s quite clear that they’re not all going today because there’s you know k starma out there on the doorsteps still isn’t that popular well some of our early number crunching seems to suggest we’ve done uh better or or increasing our vote share in areas where there’s a higher proportion of Britain’s Ares because they’re very concerned about the double taxation on pensions which is coming which is the only way to pay for their 46 billion pound unfunded commitment Nigel Lawson warned back in the day when he looked at this in a memo he sent to out with thater that we uncovered that this would lead to pensioners being taxed twice what n LS said it’s in his memo it’s it’s it’s absolute nonsense the idea that we’re going to do anything how are you going to fund it then we have protected we we’ve already been very clear they haven’t clear as M actually we have Jonathan where the You’ just jumped in right we’ve already cut a third of National Insurance right that’s already happened we’ve said in the long term what we want to do is end the double taxation of those in work I understand so double taxation on pensions no absolutely not I’ve been very clear about that no so you were and so I’ve just let just just I’ve just literally said we’re not going to double tax that what I’ve been very clear on is that they’ve just made a newc it’s quite no that’s absolutely not it’s quite clear that the labor party right are really scared about the fact bring the treasury SP and see if that’s the line to take I don’t think it is we are cutting taxes on working people why I don’t understand where the labor party right wants to doesn’t want to start to cut taxes for people in work so is true you’re ruling out an income tax you voted against let’s be very clear I just said we’re not we’re not going to raise we’re not going to raise the race we’ also Pion not going to pay more income tax and we’ve also and I’ll tell you something else we’re going to do for pensioners we’re also going to keep the triple lock when when when Jonathan was INB going to keep the triple Jonathan was in government when Jonathan was in government lab put up income tax sorry labor going to put up income tax we have uh hang on a minute hang on a minute hang on we have we have Rachel has made it very clear what our position is on income tax we’re not we’re not increasing the uh uh the rates of income tax but under your plan under under your plan right to fund your 46 billion pounds no Jonathan you’re putting words in our mouth we’ve been very clear that we’ll only cut taxes when the financial position position allow that’s why we’ve already cut 4% of the basic rate for National Insurance that’s really important that’s what money directly into workers Pockets people want to know where the 46 billion is coming what I want to understand is I mean Jonathan starts to float figures around right but the truth is we’ve put these tax cuts through for working people and in the long term we want we want to abolish the double tax ham I don’t understand why tax bur the War I don’t understand why labor won’t commit what haven’t backed our tax CS for working people this 46 billion thing is this just a bit of Revenge for the 28 billion thing you’re using exactly the same lines to attack this as the T us to attack but you didn’t have you didn’t really have answers on that it’s not remotely that they have made a commitment to abolish National Insurance over time that that commitment costs 46 billion means taking did say it would it would take two Parliament they still not going to outly they still got to outline where that money is coming from if you take 46 billion out of out of the National Insurance when the position isn’t directly linked to pensions anymore but it’s Legally Legally ring Fen link has gone though so no it’s still legally ring fenced in the Social Security Act from the early 1990s that that money goes to pay for p very clear about that the other day this is absolutely so that 46 billion where is that money could now if it’s going to be if it’s not going to be a cut to the state pension and it’s not going to be rise increasing the retirement age which to be fair the government have ruled out both of those then if it’s if it’s merging National Insurance and income tax that means pensioners being tax that’s what Nigel that’s why Nigel Lawson ruled this out in the mid 8s and it’s very clear that I understand that Jonathan is really worried that we’re cutting taxes on working people this is a progressive tax cut this is cutting tax tax this is a this is a tax for people of age in the old days the labor party used to sign up for working people it doesn’t do that anymore it’s not interested in readers are getting absolutely sque under why won’t you back why won’t you back it Johnson why don’t you want to remove taxes for working people we did back the National Insurance no no why won you back our pledge in the long term because I tell you what I tell you what because we don’t play fast and loose with the public finances like your party does because that sends money special advisor readers pay because of you and your policies the mortgage Rising tax incasing NHS cutting Sor party when you were when you were a special adviser in the last Labor government right you left us with the biggest with with 11% of the entire country’s GDP as a budget deficit right you sold the gold you sold us down the blooming river right you a lot love to talk about austerity there’s only one reason that happen that’s because you more on the morgage the morgage raising T all right here we go here we go isn’t it now time to start being a little bit clearer on some policies at the labor party actually you we talk about your big missions and your big themes but really every time sakir Dharma seems to get pinned really pinned down on an issue now which he doesn’t really want to talk about he wants to we the big picture I totally understand that you’re 20 points ahead but isn’t it now fair to voters now readers to really start being honest what you’re actually going to do about immigration what you’re actually going to do about defense take the Rwanda thing you know we read from Andrew Mah that labor now considering keeping Rwanda is that something you you you no that’s absolutely not true but even as a stop Gap until your own no so day one you ground the flag CU just just before we get into the policy discussion I just want to say look these are good results for labor we there’s momentum behind us however I do genuinely think that the next general election is very very competitive right the conservative party is the most successful election-winning party in the Western World right if people want to turn the page if people want change after 14 years they’re going to have to vote labor at that next general election we’re not complacent we’re still fighting for every vote and we do believe that this next general election is incredibly competitive but on the policy in terms of the policy no we don’t think the Rwanda scheme is work even if there are planes leaving on a regular basis by acting as a deterrent I mean the legislation has gone through we had SE over 700 people coming on a boat on Wednesday we don’t believe it’s an effective deterrent the way to tackle this issue is to work internationally is our view which is why we want to cooperate internationally it’s why we want to put more inv think the government has been trying to do that already well no I don’t actually I don’t think jonan you know we’ve been give me one one second just on on this issue on Rwanda you you you say you know the people close to K Arma briefing eminent political journalist of his generation Andrew Mah saying one thing saying the you might not immediately ground the planes you’re saying that’s completely wrong day one labor government no no we are not scking with that scheme and we’re going to use the money that we would save which is costing us what half a billion pounds it actually be cheaper to put up all these people up in the Paris RIT yeah I mean six billion six billion pound a year it’s 8 billion pound a year hotel bill if we’re talking about hotels you got to have something to solve that and and stop the gang but this scheme does not help does not will do nothing day one but it’s 1% It does not 99% of will you gra the plan on day one no we are not sticking with that scheme and we’re going to put the money even if there are planes leaving on a regular basis sing with the Randa scheme we are going to put that money into security and policing and use terrorists to about defense spending you know day one of a labor government uh K dama will be taken aside and shown some of the most horrific intelligence and things you could possibly imagine you are going to have to seriously increase defense spending the government have have pledged to do that by 2030 you’re not backing that pledge well we want to see defense spending rise to 2.5% we don’t believe it can be done by getting rid of civil servants that’s Makey upy numbers that the that wasn’t that was that was year that was part of year Ones Year Mak upy numbers in the government finances is why they’ve not put it through the OB or any official body it was completely Makey upy but we do believe that we’ve got to defend our nation the Army has been hollowed out or the armed forces have hollowed out one of the tour is the smallest Armed Forces since Napoleonic times and we we we are committed to getting to the 2.5 the same question one of the things we are going to do is going to have a proper review we know this government has was Former Defense secretary a guy you know benoss across the house in those 14 years you waste 15 billion pounds on on procurement in defense completely kicking I as used to sit on the Public Accounts committee your record on kicking the can down the road 15 billion they lost kicking the can down the road with another def you know that’s just delaying the whole thing by 18 months no we want to get to 2.5% we’re going to look at the books properly and carefully we’re not going to make we’re not when you’re talking about the defense of this country and our people who serve this country and put their lives on the line we’re not going to make commitments to them based on Makey up numbers like this Mak any Rich come back to you in a sec just one more thing you know the massive amounts of out of work uh rates since uh since the since the pandemic the growing size of of the benefit bill again labor incredibly wooly about it no I don’t think we are in fact if you remember when I work did the work in pensions brief uh I was I was speaking out about this quite regularly about the increasing numbers of people have been forced out of work you’re very good at identifying the problems though but what is a labor Sol that’s what I think the voters want to know actually we put forward a series of welfare reforms that the government then adopted my welfare reforms and are implementing some of the some of the proposals that we put forward some of the other things you’ve got to do you’ve got to fix the way Mental Health Services operate because increasing numbers of people are out of work for reasons of mental health you’ve got to make sure that people get into proper Mental Health Services but yes you do have to look at the assessment regime so we’re going to look at these uh proposals for uh personal Independence payments remember though personal Independence payments isn’t about people necessarily being out of work that’s a separate benefit that’s but people who dis able to get benefits we do want to get people into work and you do we we do have to take action bringit you agree there needs to be sort of grading level within the payment system that currently you definitely got to put in place a series of welfare reforms to help people return to work people should work if they’re able to work that is something I always said when I was a shadow working pens I’ve got some criticism by the way yeah from uh uh not from this newspaper but from other other sort of colonists on other newspapers I got some criticism for saying that but I believe people who who should work I’m afraid should work and we would introduce welfare reforms to support people into work Richard benefit reform defense spending Rwanda you know the government have been on a policy Blitz in the last 14 days but the results are showing it’s not working what on Earth can richy sunak do to turn this around look and you’re quite right you know but a lot of this is building on stuff we’ve done over the long term one of the big changes that we did when we came into office was adop Universal Credit which stopped people uh before then people couldn’t do more than 16 hours a week in many many jobs without just totally losing huge quantities of benefits we’ve all now we got a position where our benefits reforms which I’m not sure whether Jonathan or and the labor still back uh in terms of Universal Credit you know we will always ensure that work pays we’ve still going to do more on that we’ve actually saw 100,000 people a year come off between 2010 and the start of the pandemic from some of those longer term uh sickness benefits we saw a big spike uh with the pandemic it’s a right that we start to look and address uh that now in answer to you your sort of direct question you know we we have started to put out policies there on defense spending uh we have on welfare reform and obviously we’ve got this on immigration there’s there there’s always more to go I can’t obviously talk about future policy that we’re going to do but it’s I think we’ve got a a real key dividing line starting to open up between ourselves and labor at the moment we’ve been very clear where we want to go on taxation of working people we’ve been very clear where we going to defense spending Jonathan talks a good game but he not prepared to numbers behind it looks like you’re drawing up a Manifesto there in terms of dividing lines and big policies well we’ve we’ve when we thinking July well we have we have we have I we’ve got we’ve got time to go yet right and there obviously we’re building that big policy platform to build on what we’ve done over the last uh 14 years but we’re going to do in the future as well and some of those some of those changes I think Jonathan in his heart of hearts would back now which he probably opposed at the time like our changes to the education system where we’ve actually seen uh England really rise up some of the international rankings like our changes in schools we’ve seen now from two-thirds of kids attaining good or outstanding schools in 2010 that’s at 90% today and it’s in start contrast to actually what’s happened in other parts of the UK like in Wales where labor have been charged for 25 years and things have gone backwards in a lot of cases you you’re both quite similar guys you’re creatures of the political world you’ve done similar jobs Johnny you were do a sort of similar job to Richard me bloody Al where you taking this in the spirit of never mind the ballots Harmony h i we’ve had some testing moments so far but what you know what piece of advice would you give Richard about how you know about where they are the world and Richard what piece of advice would how search for a seat going oh well that’s a good question I I’m still is is it true that you’re going for that filed seat that’s the Westminster where you you know what if where you got rid of that Tor MP you got himself into a load of bother is it being lined up for you it’s certainly not being lined up for me if I lined if I listen to every rumor I’ve been told I’m quite tricky being the party chairman trying to trying to get a seat there I mean it’s well you know if if anyone can stitch it up you my job is to go around the country support our candidates your toy party membership in lanc uh yeah I’ve always been a member since I since I joined P the fil up the road from where you live we’ll have to see what happens who knows Richard your advice for Jonathan I would say to Jonathan look he know look Jonathan’s actually you know he always you know tried to be on the moderate wing of the labor party but is you know with really it really has tried I think that the truth is that labor have need to have really properly work through Pro proposals right if they’re going to be taken seriously by the British people on Taxation and on defense we are being taken seriously I I just what’s just happened in I would just just just a second Jonathan I didn’t you know you did not in a not in a snarky way like you are I was being nice right I think I think genuinely uh when it comes down to it I think people want to see lower taxes on working people I understand why the labor party try to I yeah we’ve had to pay for to support people during the pandemic and through the energy price crisis as well which is you know and I think you’re broadly supported us doing that right and I we would need to see taxes cut why cutting taxes for people in work and we’re also protecting pension or incomes I thinkb if labor were serious about working Britain as I think they want to be that’s where I’d be going as well people are worse off under the Tories and they pay more on their all right we are at time gentlemen go to bed get some sleep thank you for coming come back and see never mind about it soon uh and we’ll uh we’ll carry this carry on this fight thank you both Jonathan Ashworth Richard Holden that’s it for today’s special episode this was never mind the ballots see you next time he [Music]

THE Tories were dealt a bloody nose today as Labour swept to victory in hundreds of town hall seats.

Sir Keir Starmer’s party seized control of several councils and stormed the Blackpool South by-election in a bruising morning for Rishi Sunak.

Read more:
Tories handed bloody nose in local elections as Labour make big gains…but there’s some relief for Rishi
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/27673282/local-elections-2024-polls-open-in/

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