Putin tries to repair ‘ravaged army’ as Russia struggles to ‘take the war deep’ | Brig. Gen. Zwack

with this new group coming in it’s more businesslike um and um clearly industrial bases up there they have terrible uh they’re they’re working to be able to you know build new tank lines and uh t9s um not a lot now what about 50 a month or something but it’s it’s you know they’re working at rebuilding they’re [Music] absolutely milit broken uh milit Ian the ukrainians just ravaged as we all know in the first specially year um Russian Russian material military materially and and and psychologically hello and welcome to Frontline for times radio I’m James Hansen and today we’re talking about the latest on the war in Ukraine with Peter Zak a retired Brigadier General who served for 34 years in the US Army as an intelligence officer before becoming the US’s senior defense attache to the Russian Federation between 2012 and 2014 he’s a regular guest here on front line it’s always a pleasure General Zack welcome back a distinct pleasure to speak to you and my British English allies and friends to begin with I wanted to get your thoughts on some comments we’ve had recently from president zelinski given the advances we’ve been seeing Russia making in Haro blast in the northeast of Ukraine is zalinsky right to call for NATO to become more directly involved in this conflict in particular should NATO allies be prepared to shoot down Russian missiles James it’s a slippery slope um and and um our nation the NATO Nations have been very very careful to do all they can to support Ukraine without getting into a dust up to get without getting you know without without uh fighting Russians and um um and uh people get killed and this thing uh rapidly escalates saying that what must be done to ensure or do everything we can uh to ensure that Ukraine is is is enabled both materially and with morale and and and Mox to continue this grinding awful fight where they have been extraordinary in the last good God can you believe it it’s been uh it’s been uh 15 months uh so so um this is hard I’m I’m one that believes now that we need to take our gloves off um as far as uh letting the ukrainians uh fire into Russia with whatever um uh systems uh that uh they are provided and uh there are some out there that are intrigued by the thought of not not going into to engage the Russians but to set up as we talked about in 2014 excuse me in uh 2022 a no fly and no Drive Zone and maybe that is maybe that line is the Neo River uh the nepro um giving the ukrainians the ability to fight um with uh their full resources um along that 600 mile front which is a formidable uh task especially when you are in a meat grinder uh uh situation at that point you know it comes down to if there is something along that line with NATO but it would probably be a coalition of the Willing because I can’t see NATO at 31 supporting that then um then you go public and say we are here up to this line we’re not going Beyond to back stop to support our our um our uh Ukrainian Partners our friends who are under a a a Beyond The Pale 17 months of continued aggression where the violence of such is as every bit now as bad as day one of the invasion um and the the the the the thing you throw back at the Russians is you lay it out you lay it out to the world and we will say you know we could say we will go to this line we will stop Russia it’s your choice we don’t want to fight but we want to ensure this this this uh this uh this free independent struggling it’s not a perfect Nation but it’s given every right to survive within if you will we Define our greater Western Civilization because it’s grown into that um so I think it’s a it’s a it’s a really really dangerous uh scenario um maybe maybe the you know there’s a no fly no Penzone uh you know farther back from uh from the na but that might be an in between measure uh from U launching NATO forces U into uh combat now the other the other piece of this and we’re hearing it which is a good step and maybe the first step and maybe it just goes to that we would all hope for is U is is a major NATO training effort but what what they’re talking about is NATO troops in Ukraine helping Ukraine forces train and of course they will for sure be subject to Russians attacks and people will unfortunately get killed and then it just goes on and so this is a desperately difficult situation because we don’t want to do this we don’t want to get into a situation where we Engage The Russians and the Russians know it and they’re playing their brinksmanship and they’re playing their nuclear brinksmanship and they’re you know they’re they’re you know they’re throwing out their threats um I mean they said just a week or two ago that they’ll hit UK if uh if uh when when David Cameron was uh was there and and uh and talking about you doing all they can to support Ukraine so James this is hard stuff I would rather not go down these paths but can we whatever we call ourselves the free-minded West world the free-minded uh world it’s not just the West see Ukraine fall so have be forced to to submit to the Russians and there this is part partially medieval Russians want the ukrainians to submit um and I am skeptical that that uh that that Putin’s um um Ambitions stop uh at uh at uh at at at occupying all the donetes and uh and uh calling it a win I I think that just sets up the ground for future War um and um so I know everybody has a view I I try to be moderate uh I believe now we need to go all in with the weapon system some support and then consider some of the things that have been talked about within NATO realizing that NATO at 31 Nations will never support a a full intervention and maybe there is Maybe we’re back to the discussions of No Fly and no Drive zones and it is interesting Peter that you mentioned in particular whether it is time to look again at Western supplied weapons being used to hit Russian targets behind the Russian lines and you mentioned David Cameron he made the comments a couple of weeks ago saying as far as Britain is concerned and Britain appears to be a bit of an outlier in this sense that Britain is prepared for Ukraine to use British supplied weapons however it sees fit you’re starting to hear the German foreign minister makes similar sounds however there’s a bit of tension within the German governing Coalition do you think America will move on that and do you think Joe Biden and the White House will in the next few months say yes okay you can use us supplies weapons in Russia I think that um that again uh our presidents um and and um of of the Nations especially with nuclear weapons fuel they ow a number one obligation to keep their own citizenry safe uh from a worst case nuclear um Holocaust um and that includes our allies and friends and I think that this weighs on when you have that type of responsibility you can’t just Willy willy-nilly make a decision like that because it’s consequential now I you know when we take a rational thinker uh approach you know we one wants to believe that Putin and the Russians want to push it all the way to the hill but don’t want to go to a nuclear war um but if there’s anything we know about war and and um and um just just how these things expand when you follow logic train yeah it it all makes sense but when you start to add passion history Pride uh ego reputation um things get skewed look how World War I started nobody wanted to go to war but but uh everybody you know uh just just you know just piled in and piled in and piled and then they had a a a a you know World War II was different I believe the the environment is more like the 30s where we see Ukraine in some variation sort of a equivalent of uh of what Czechoslovakia was in 1938 and the West didn’t fight for the checks and if they and and aggression and Hitler was emboldened if the Russians are are are able to claim victory and I know you know there’s a school of thought and you I get it and then there’s a side of me yeah that let you know give the Russians what they want which is conquered Ukrainian territory of of a land mass a nation that the Russians recognized in 1991 the through the UN and again in 1994 through the Budapest memorandum so when they say that Ukraine is not a real nation and ukrainians are not a real people you know we have a lot of the tropes and lexicon of of of the 30s uh and um so there this is I think our our governments are in a really really really difficult situation our populations I think mostly are really sympathetic to the ukrainians but at what point does does supporting them you know support my life in Lancaster or Iowa where I’m supportive but I don’t want the war to come to my home in some extended way and I’m exaggerating a little bit so so your your question is is is a huge one um the other you know the option to not support them well we’re going to support them but to what degree is then Ukraine is in a meat grinder fight along this long front which could be a kin a bit like World War I but it’s also a lot like the German Russian Soviet Eastern front uh fights from 44 42 to 44 which was over the ground really 43 for over the same ground that is going on now and the Soviets wore the Germans down who were better Fighters uh initially the Soviets learned as the Russians are learning and um and and and and started to push along the front after the battle of K uh all around and then the front the the German front started to to uh erode and and and leak and then and then collapse one key thing in the war right now to watch and there’s a discussion about the Russian ability to to really really take the war deep um I believe that at right now it they’re not fully capable of doing that when you study um their formations their their military their armor their mobile heavy mobile uh are are not up to it but the Russians were among the first that wrote the doctrine of exploitation and um operational maneuver groups and one of the things that we must all watch ukrainians are sure if somehow the Russians are able to build an operational reserve of of armor and and and and mobile things that could actually exploit uh uh one of their um uh one of their um uh not I wouldn’t say breakthroughs but one of their um uh hotspots so we can go on and on you’ve got me on a on a on a line of thought I’ll go any which way you want to do the bottom line we need to avoid going toe totoe eye to eye with the Russians um but it’s the same point we can’t let I believe with what they’ve shown and again who are we what are we in our in our Western you know our greater uh free mind free free World um um Nations uh if we see Ukraine fall on the on the Eastern Edge border of Europe and and that would be a really really hard thing it would be uh the question what I’m afraid of is in two or three or four years is fingers being pointed like after 1939 and Chamberlain and all that who lost Poland I mean I mean who lost uh who lost Ukraine if Ukraine Falls and what do we look like and then the other things um um again you’ve got me on a train of thought is China watches Vladimir Putin was just in Beijing and Harbin xiin ping um um you know what what a and and Taiwan that’s all out there and I believe Taiwan is in part linked to Ukraine um um as far as a measure of of resolve western or free-minded resolve um Iran is a mess right now um again they lost their president and and foreign minister but but they are so solidly linked uh with uh Russia and then you have the you know the straight dangerous voltage of North Korea that can create a lot of Mischief in the Pacific I’ll stop here I wanted to get your thoughts on what we’ve been seeing in Russia in the past few weeks in particular the changes in the Russian Ministry of defense and with Andre bosov becoming the new defense minister and the way the kremin appears to be trying to really sort of um bring together the economy with the war economy I suppose you could say the private economy with the war economy and putting potentially Russia onto a permanent War footing it’s an argument that some analysts have been advancing now that you are seeing Russia moving towards a permanent War footing do you agree with that um you know we’ve heard the term that that uh Mark gallotti threw out there uh Russia and Putin’s uh Forever War and clearly Putin and Russia with Russia um have put Russia on an existential thinking basis in a way that the West I don’t think fully comprehends and Putin has made this now a struggle for Russians Russia’s existence its principles and mores um um its people its land uh the Western threat uh and and um and and a lot of the this narrative is the narrative that Stalin adopted um when the Nazis invaded in 1941 and then all of a sudden he started to call out patriotic Russia patriotic Soviet Union and and and Putin uh and the uh regime is is playing all those those patriotic terms and and decadent NATO and and and and in the corrupt West and anti- you know us-led CIA anti-russian uh cabal and uh and if so they are they have moved psychologically first um and they’re now materially working toward that into a more of a war footing and that goes with uh with the um Andre bosov uh the new Minister of Defense who is a a civilian I guess you would call technocrat that that has been in the system uh and has Putin’s um trust um replaced um I think increasingly the figurehead shyu who I think was frankly overmatched by all this um and had not been a very very good War leader uh and and then uh and then a whole bunch of sackings I mean they they fired the deputy mindf teor ianov for corruption you know arrested him and then uh and then another was U the deputy Minister of Defense uh Al um um Alexander fan who we knew in our time uh as a officer um working on the general staff Ministry defense in Moscow uh what is extraordinary is that uh I came to Moscow in 2012 in U in the summer of 2012 and at that time just two months afterwards um ana serov the Russian um Minister fence was was fired moved on for corruption and in came uh shyu s and and general Valerie gasimov and until a couple weeks ago they had been there for 12 12 years that doesn’t happen in any country in the west um but let’s look at it this is where we go back to Game of Thrones it’s trust Putin trusts trusted shyu and he’s moved him to the you know sort of you know you know show to show face to the um um National Security Council where um Demitri medv Dev was um and and um and and bringing in new people but clearly there’s a more with this new group coming in it’s more businesslike um and um clearly industrial Bas is up there they have terrible they’re they’re working to be able to you know build new tank lines and uh t9s um not a lot now what about 50 a month or something but it’s it’s you know they’re working at rebuilding their abs [Music] absolutely milit broken um milit I mean ukrainians just ravaged as we all know in the first especially year um Russian Russian material military materially and and and psychologically Russian military they’re beefing it up bringing in a lot of uh recruits conscripts but there is increasingly we’re seeing our you know advertisements and push they’re portraying to the Russian people that that you volunteer this is a fight for our existence and there is a concern that this is as much becoming um um it’s still Putin’s War but it’s more and more James Russia Russia’s war and all these things um have um I think staying power in mind I really really struggle in seeing how Putin will be satisfied quote unquote with buffer zones in Ukraine he’d like that to Shell hary but a deep down I I believe he wants to to again um as he did in 2022 ultimately want to finish uh the Ukrainian government and and its independence and and and put it under Russian susar so so yeah the the the the bringing in BOS bosov uh was important um and um we’re seeing you know we we’re seeing uh can we believe that just nine 10 months ago we had um we had uh yeah pen with his drive to Moscow that was just 10 month nine 10 months ago and and um and we’re all kind is is Putin regime going to survive this and they have I mean they’ve shown resilience in all of this um a troubling resilience but also with with this Mother Russia um it gives I think Putin and the regime the cart blanch to be more of authoritarian domestically um and they have been really hard on opposition not like not like Stalin was where they all got taken and shot somewhere but uh ruthlessly too I mean they killed uh Naval can we believe that was just three months ago uh and and so there is a lot to way to come back to your question Ukraine is fighting for its life friends it’s it is it is at and they’re exhausted um uh they they’ve got they they’re they’re they’ve proven to be great Fighters and they adapt but you know they have beginning have significant Manpower shortages where the Russians with their mobilizations and call-ups will continue just to throw throw forces into the meat grind apparently the latest Rounds Around har uh they did get surprised but I always worried with the fights along the donet line uh the donbas line that the uh the lines extended out um um north of har and then out towards Sumi and cherev out in the west were always very very vulnerable um and and we’re seeing that now the Russians are significantly better better than they were ukrainians are better than they are but they have adapted there’s nothing like getting beaten up and your nose punched and you survive uh to to learn and survive and so you do have a basis of trained veteran Russian troops though the overwhelming majority still are raw conscripts raw recruits uh that are be being fed in into this charnal house now um that was of divka and now being uh you know in in in the in the fights now these awful fights around harke in um lisy and volon so it it just goes on last thing the technology it’s getting in many ways with all the high-tech it’s getting more viscerally brutal on the element Al on the elemental way and and we’ve seen we’ve seen um uh just Again The Brute Force on Force artillery and shells and every and and and all that we’ve talked about these um awful Glide bombs that we’re hearing about that you know a a a sue 2035 or Sue 2034 can out of range uh launch them from 50 kilometers away and with uh with some basic sat sat uh you know um glass satellite coms can get pretty close to a Target sort of like a a cruise missile bomb a ton and and when you Dro Ser you know they were used around in divka um and then uh it’s certainly um right you know volans um um this is crushing to defenders in the trenches and everything else and the cities um and I just try to think about what it must be like for the Ukrainian fighter where a lot of them can’t be replaced you meaning they’re there and and and the rotation system has gotten a lot harder and harder because there not as many troops to come in and they’ve had to call up 25y olds are trying to save the Youth of Ukraine um most of the fighters on Ukraine the active duty if you can believe in the fronts are what between 40 and 43 years old can you believe that so this is a grind and it goes on over time and I think that’s part of Putin’s strategy it’s going to wear them down and it what point at what point is there does does in there their minds though we don’t see it anytime soon do the ukrainians actually start to Break um because this is as desperate of Defense sustained defense that we’ve seen in Modern Times And um the six months lost with in my own Congress and in the west and with uh with getting uh Ukraine mins um at a critical time Russians were will really um really able to uh I think uh take advantage of that they’re much smarter than they were two years ago um though not necessarily um we’re we’re better ukrainians are better but the Russians are much improved General Zach you always give us plenty to think about thank you once again for your time thank you for joining us on front line hey hey just uh thank you world peace uh we got to we got to get through this and um uh we’re at that point where um we we have to look reality in the eye and if we want this this this struggling um desperately fighting um uh democracy on the uh in Europe to survive this is the time when we got to figure out something that works and I think what that sweet spot between going you know overly aggressive and and um and not doing enough and then finally this is also not just an American or european this is a global issue in United Nations issue the problem is is what much of the global South um unfortunately is staying out of it and maybe quietly uh supporting uh the Russian position and so this is this is hard we got to keep working it there’s no easy way God bless you always a pleasure thank you so much cheers thank you thank you for watching this episode of Frontline for times radio for more on the war in Ukraine subscribe to the times radio YouTube channel listen to times radio on your Digital radio or you can read the Times online with your digital subscription or in print thank you and goodbye

“There’s a discussion about the Russian ability to really take the war deep. I believe that, right now, they’re not fully capable of doing that…their formations are not up to it.”

Putin’s military is unlikely to advance beyond probing offensives unless his new defence minister can rebuild the Russian military, Brigadier General Peter Zwack tells Frontline on #timesradio

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47 comments

  2. If nato all out Russia wo6ld have to call on his friends which would become the end of earth cause what is happening is that everybody fighting for a belief Authoritarian vs Democracy anybody loose will be subject to the other is the world ready for such a gamble ?

  4. Very surprising to hear of the Russian army struggles according to Lavrov and his bald headed colleague who represent Russia and threaten constantly the Russian army is doing great and of course Russian tv stations confirm this SURELY THEY COULD NOT BE LYING ?

  7. Does he knows how long its been the war in ukarian? Is it 15 or 17 months or ?? He needs to correct it out his statements or by the news reporter self. No truth at all.

  8. It is painful listening to this guy trying to formulate a sentence. Please have guests on that can speak a little faster and more concise.

  11. Should declare a no fly soon over the whole country and tell the Russians any troops within Unrainian territory will become targets 1 month later…Putin has zero answer to a serious NATO airpower effort

  12. 13:48 if Ukrainian not support EU CANT ask help. why askeed?? Not calling a EUmaidan?? Why want found freeze in EU if not want join EU?! If want join found ll stay for pay a weapons and Money for Ukraine sistem . 1.5b only for mounths for pay welfare service.from 27 mounths plus 50 b plus weapon if want join EU cant ask for Frozen money.. want a SOVRANITy without agreement with other money?

  17. This guy doesn’t believe the rhetoric he spouts but is making a living from stringing the war out for as long as possible. Sitting on the fence for 2 years and only now recognising use of imported weapons to strike behind enemy lines.

  18. This guy needs to be put on the shelf. Not a great guest. Trips over his words, vague on the facts, and just dithers and mutters his way through. Much better guest options out there, Times Radio.

  25. The reason russia threatens with nukes because they know their army is trash and if it came to a conventional war nato would be at the Kremlin in less than a week roasting putin head over a slow fire.This war would of been won by Ukraine in the first year if Biden and Nato hadn't fell for putins nuke bluff.1 weapon system out of the dozens nato has brought the entire russian army to its kness so had we given Ukraine all we had to give the fight would of been one.But im starting to believe that secretly they dont want Ukraine to win right away for two reasons.
    1) Nato wants to bleed russias military until its nearly broken
    2) Its a testing ground for many different weapon systems, counter measures,and tactics.Also with foreign support they are gaining valuable intelligence on our future enemies.

    One thing this conflict has shown the west is that Nato needs a more streamlined leadership. MN

  29. Hasn't the military learned anything about history

    now the USA and the West are doing just like Neville Chamberlain and we all know how it ended

    puttin just laughs at us and the west how easily scared they are and keeps falling for puttin's red line

    while ukraine fights like a lion and loses soldiers completely unnecessarily because the usa and the west have tied their hands

  34. Its a matter of prosecution and not equivocation for the benefit of "market" concerns i.e. Peter Thiel. 5 treaties broken/Minsk, in the context of a failed post 1991 "customs union" economic sphere – where Klepto has been the objective from the outset. Rationalisation of revanchist ambition is fruitless. The 1850s playbook which was justified by Illyin to support Czarist aims, and is quoted now.

  35. America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan supposedly because of a false claim over weapons of mass destruction and 9/11. Yet they continue to dither over allowing Ukraine to use western weapons to fire on russian positions in russia firing on Ukrainian soldiers and civilians. The hypocrisy is astounding.

  37. Containment v. NATO "expansion" is the myth which is manipulated by 'RU' philosophy – aside from EU policy errors ref. The Balkans – as NATO is opt in. Therefore this Thesis that a degined aggressor enables policy is visibly wrong. George Kennan referred to this in the 40s. Therefore the exposure of 'RU' military equipment and Logistical ineptitude – again ref. 1989 – as part of this Animus focused policy is clear to see. Reference to the Czarist 1850s is a clear existential example of expansion aims from 'Moscow' which goes back to post Kyiv Duchy Ivan 1 aims.
    The rationalisation for an Animus to support a 'complex' for a status quo and commercial "realities " is somewhat disengenious and discredited in the current post 1991 regional relationships.

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