Allies say Ukraine can use Western weapons to strike inside Russia | Power & Politics
NATO foreign ministers are on their way to Prague for a meeting focused on Ukraine in recent weeks Russia has made some of its most significant gains since invading in 2022 and this week France and Germany both announced Ukraine is allowed to use supplied weapons to strike inside Russia this is a break with where the US stands and Canada appears aside with its European allies we need to be forward leaning on this question why because Russia has no red line and so that is why we need to make sure that when it comes uh Ukraine’s defense that we’re there to help them and that uh we show that not withstanding what is happening that we’re by their side and there’s uh in Canada no condition on N user uh shipment uh of arms to Ukraine and that is why we will continue to work with uh Ukrainian Armed Forces retired General Tom Lawson is a former Chief of the defense staff for the Canadian Armed Forces and he joins me now General Austin it’s good to see you thanks for joining us pleasure David you just heard Melanie Jolie response there to a reporter asking about whether Canada would is on board with France and Germany and allowing weapons that supplies to Ukraine to hit military sites inside Russia uh certainly what Canada was able to give is not enough to tip the balance of this conflict but what message you think this uh this all sends to other members of NATO in particular the US right well I I think uh what it’s saying is that there is an increasing concern uh in NATO uh and elsewhere that uh Russian momentum uh threatens to uh to overcome Ukraine defenses and it’s not Beyond The Pale to think that there’s a possibility that Ukraine could fall uh and uh whereas NATO members have uh all been very very concerned about what red lines might be out there that the Russians have set over the last couple of years and now the real risk is what happens uh if Russia is able to increase their momentum uh and this whole thing falls apart I mean just operationally and uh if Russia is able to put its artillery and its troops on one side of the Russia Ukraine border and fire at critical infrastructure and civilian targets and Military targets from Sanctuary essentially because Ukraine is limited in its ability to fight back can Ukraine win that fight it seems like an impossibility uh to an amateur like me well there was some hope in the spring uh after the Russian attack had been blunted and been uh fairly uh stable uh for a year and a bit that Ukraine would be able to develop with the weapons that were coming in and with their training uh develop some momentum that would simply push the Russians back uh to their Sanctuary um but your your point gets to an even bigger one how did Russian territory become uh sran how did it become a a sanctuary and there is one simple answer for that and it’s because Russia said it was sacros sank and the uh the problem for NATO is that as soon as Russia says something is a red line uh NATO has to take that into consideration because the leader may or may not be fully rational and they were quick to throw around the nuclear weapon uh trump card that nobody was quite certain they might use so there’s nothing legal about this Sanctuary that Russia’s talking about but it has for the last couple of years concerned NATO members and now maybe there are bigger risks that are starting to turn that concern I I I get the argument that who knows what Putin State of Mind is and of course Russia is a nuclear power and those are very complicating factors in this but in sort of the laws of war we’ve talked a lot about what’s happened with Gaza that Israel has a right to defend itself in accordance with the laws of war and as such you know there is a tolerance by some countries who are in NATO for what is Israel is doing in Gaza and firing into Lebanon and other places like that how is would the laws of war apply to a situation where Ukraine which was invaded were to shoot back into Russia like legally it would be allowed it’s more the moral weight of NATO holding them back how how do we interpret that that’s well put that’s well put what you just said there legally as long as those targets are valid military targets Ukraine stands on firm ground right so as I say the only reason that NATO has put limitations and Ukraine has followed those limitations for fear of losing those we lines of weaponry and even those allies at some point uh is because of the concern of these red lines uh so no there is absolutely nothing other than Russian threats that hold Ukraine from uh from moving across uh their operations across border into Russia and we’ve seen uh over the last year and a half uh in increasing numers still very few attacks on Russian infrastructure uh oil Depots things like that in behind Russian lines that Ukraine really is loathed to take a responsibility for right these are like sabotage acts drone attacks and things which they sort of use a plausible deniability so they can’t be targeted with it and may not have used Western provided or NATO provided uh uh technology but from a tactical and strategic sense if Ukraine were to get the green light because they struggle with air superiority obviously in Ukraine and with air defense because of what’s happening but if they’re given permission to start hitting these Russian targets inside Russian territory what does that do for Ukraine’s ability to sort of push back and better protect its civilians and its infrastructure from what Russia has been doing well it’s very important to your point you made a couple minutes ago when you uh can only play up to uh for instance in a metaphor Center Ice you’re playing defense all the time you can push the other team back to Center Isa but you’re not going to score any goals as soon as you’re bringing that Weaponry to bear on valid military targets uh either a little ways or very deep into Russian territory it changes that calculus in a big way and Russian leaders now know that the war is being seen and felt uh by Russian civilians in their own on their own territory so it it it brings a whole new calculus uh to the Russian side and uh probably eases pressure that the Ukrainian soldiers are feeling in around kke and the donet fian so Canada which you know there’s some howitzers and the promise to buy a Nayan which would be able to fire in the Russian territory should it ever be delivered because of the procurement and supply chain challenges there uh it it says go ahead France was very explicit today president macron was on a state visit to Germany Germany not quite as boisterous as France but moving in that direction the us though is a Lynch pin in this and there’s been reporting in the New York Times and another plac is that they are reconsidering their policy of telling president zinsky not to do this and it’s maybe Secretary of State Anthony blinkin and his Department that is trying to drive this change where do you think this goes there’s a series of NATO meetings leading up to the Washington DC leader Summit in July which is a long time in that conflict do do you think the US will eventually relent here because president zelinsky’s pleas are getting pretty loud and persistent on this right so and we can add Poland and Finland the countries that are now quite taking off all limits and you make a good point uh the the Canadian Weaponry which is very important the Canadian uh contributions have been very good really are not the ones that need limitations uh taken off these uh uh you know these high Mars missiles that have come from the states the rocket systems artillery and artillery rounds uh could well uh do damage inside Russia so so that’s real but it will be things like the fighter jets that Ukraine is getting from Belgium Denmark and Norway uh and are right now limited uh to uh flying over only Ukrainian territory that when those limitations come off all of the tactics and operations that are being planned by Ukrainian military leaders on behalf of the strategies that zilinsky and the political leadership want uh to blunt the Russian attack and turn it around uh become far simpler right now they’ve got a matrix they’ve got layout on the table every time they start to develop an operational plan uh and check to see which Weapons Systems and weapons can be used uh if indeed they press across Russian border uh when you take those those limitations off as we’re seeing more and more uh Nations doing that becomes a simpler and simpler task to your point about the United States I actually think that they are asking Nations like Canada to throw up these trial balloons and see what sort of response comes back from Russia I think that this is an anticipation of what’s going to take place in Washington in July at that Summit yeah that that that was interesting I I had that suspicion myself when I started to see this Cascade because it makes it potentially easier for the president uh to go there uh retired General Tom Lawson really appreciate the time thanks for joining us today thanks very much for having me
France and Germany both announced this week that Ukraine is allowed to use the weapons they supplied to strike military targets inside Russia. Minister of Foreign Affairs Mélanie Joly said ‘Russia has no red line’ and Canada has ‘no condition’ on end-user arms shipped to Ukraine. Tom Lawson, a former chief of the defence staff, discusses this shift in position from some NATO countries.
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