Britain MUST send troops to Ukraine to help defeat Putin, says ex Armed Forces Minister

Britain MUST send troops to Ukraine to help defeat Putin, says ex Armed Forces Minister

[Music] should Western troops be sent to Ukraine Russia has warned it would hit back by striking British [Music] bases this is World at War I’m the sun’s defense editor Jerome starky and joining me today is former Armed Forces Minister James heape James thank you so much for coming in you’ve been one of the people saying that Western troops British troops should be sent to Ukraine is that not going to spiral this conflict into a direct war with Russia no I think uh no more than any of the previous uh steps forward that we’ve made in terms of our support for Ukraine and look fundamentally this all starts with what’s the theory of Victory and what is it that we’re trying to achieve in order to deny Putin the claim of Victory and to try to restore Ukrainian sovereignty um you know Putin started this whole thing by a wish to deny Ukraine its pathway towards EU and NATO membership so it stands to reason to me that the sooner that we can accelerate that pathway the EU thing is not an our gift anymore but NATO is sooner we can accelerate the pathway the better and then in addition to that to start seeing Western troops in the western part of Ukraine normalizing their presence uh in that part of the country probably uh most usefully as part of a training Mission because you know the Ukrainian Army is now a big second Echelon as the janid will say kind of volunteer army fighting heroically in very small teams the race Drome is to be able to get them to fight as brigades and as divisions in groups of 8,000 or 30,000 and if that is to happen having trainers in the country who can train them at Battle group Brigade and divisional level maneuver rather than having to take huge numbers of people all the way out to Poland or Germany then that feels like that’s what’s militarily necessary whilst at the Strategic political level having a donor Community force in the west of the country just accelerates that momentum towards NATO membership but do you accept that if if we put British soldiers in Western Ukraine we are putting them In Harm’s Way and it is perhaps almost inevitable that British blood will be spilled as a result well I think we have to be very clear with Putin what it is that we are doing there I we have to be very clear with him about the consequences of attacking those bases um and then I think it’s for Putin to make that calculation over the degree to which he wants to escalate you we are already training ukrainians in vast numbers outside of Ukraine I think that the argument is there that to do so in the west of Ukraine so kind of West of ke um would be great for the ukrainians but you know that’s where we have to say to Russia this is what we’re going to do you make your choice live with the consequences but over the last year or so Putin I think has got used to thinking that he’s reestablished escalation dominance whereas I think in the first year of the war Putin was really quite confounded by the way that the donor Community went there first and they went to and and we went to places that he didn’t think we would go and that brought with it all of the unease in Russia and that sort of moment of real fragility at the back end of the first year of the war and I think I think we’ve got to put Putin and his regime under more pressure they can’t have it their own way but his he and his regime have made these veiled and sometimes explicit nuclear threats we saw in response to your comments and indeed to French president macron who was saying the same thing Russia launching tactical Nuclear drills across uh its Southern forces they’ve also said that they would strike British bases inside Ukraine I think the ministry of Defense would challenge or dispute the idea that we have any bases inside Ukraine and British bases outside that is escalatory rhetoric do you take Russia at its word but but but every turn there has been that sort of rhetoric you know there was that sort of rhetoric when we provided mlrs um there was that sort of rhetoric actually when we provided law in the very first place you know there was so it is in the kremlin’s Playbook to seek to deter the donor Community by trying to scare the donor Community out of supporting Ukraine by threatening all sorts of violence and and and escalation including the nuclear saber rattle now we’ve got a choice are we going to be deterred by that rhetoric and therefore do what Russia wants which is to Plateau our support to Ukraine in such a way as best case it maintains the stalemate but may even heaven forbid see the ukrainians pushed even further backwards or are we going to challenge ourselves to say that the donor Community the Western interest remains this ending on Ukrainian terms with Putin visibly defeated and if we’re SE if we’re still seeking to achieve that strategic outcome then we have to challenge ourselves about what is the next thing that we do to both deny him victory bearing in mind that his initial War aim was to deny Ukraine the opportunity for a pathway towards EU and NATO membership so by definition being there and in parallel accelerating NATO membership denies him that initial War aim but also it gives the ukrainians a far better chance of tactical success because our capacity to train them at Brigade and divisional level so they’re capable of the level of operation required to retake their lost territory that’s something I think you can only achieve in country so on a practical level if you were in charge you could have it your way what would you see how many troops what sort of defenses would they need to make this a reality so I I think you would put uh sufficient troops to train Brigade level maneuver into Western Ukraine what’s that in a number ah I don’t know I would assume that that would require something in the order of 500 I would imagine and then there’s sort of enablers and things like that but also I think what you’ve got to be clear on is because you’ve got to whilst you can’t be deterred by the threats that the Kremlin makes you’ve also got to be realistic that you they may seek to honor them and we owe it to our troops to try to protect them so there’s probably some sort of air defense bubble that we and all the donor Community put around wherever that training is taking place in order to deny the Russi the opportunity to come good on their threats and above and beyond that what does Ukraine I mean can Ukraine win this war and and what does it need in the next weeks and months to make that a a more of a realistic possibility so it definitely can win the war um and people say what what does winning the war mean and I think that is that’s a matter for president zi fundamentally this is about Ukrainian sovereignty and if at some point in the future president zalinski decides to do some sort of territorial deal that’s tely in keeping with where we’ve been all along but what mustn’t first and foremost what mustn’t be allowed to happen is Putin mustn’t be allowed to set an example in this Century that shows you can take a bite out of your neighbor and get away with it so he must be seen to fail and then you we need support the ukrainians in whatever military objective they set for themselves people forget I think that Dunkirk to D-Day and it’s timely to be used that parallel was four years you know so the the sort of the Hail Mary the kind of the the 90 yard last second pass that people that we threw in 2022 2023 um in order to get the ukrainians onto that offensive last summer it it was possible that the conscript Russian army ill equipped low morale was brittle it could have broken it was possible that that Hail Mary might have come off it didn’t happen I think one of the problems with with talking up that offensive last summer is that people thought that the ratios needed to successfully go on the offensive and the the the scale of the the the skill that is needed the military skill to achieve an offensive of that scale could be achieved in the six months between the Autumn 22 and spring 23 dun Curt’s dday was four years you know people those who are your oldest listeners and viewers will remember you know troops all across the south of England training for 18 months solidly for the Normandy campaign um you know that’s that’s the sort of timeline people have to have in their minds that to get the ukrainians properly onto the offensive is probably another two or three years of work and that’s both donating material and it’s training them to maneuver at that scale James thank you for joining me on World at War I’m the sons defense editor Jerome starky and if you’re watching this on YouTube and you have any questions please ask them in the comments below and we will do our best to answer some of them next week

British troops in Ukraine can help accelerate Ukraine’s pathway towards EU and NATO membership and deny victory for Putin, claims former Army officer James Heappey.

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