“This Is Gonna Get Us ALL Blown Up!” Jeffrey Sachs On Russian Invasion

“This Is Gonna Get Us ALL Blown Up!” Jeffrey Sachs On Russian Invasion

here is this is going to get us all blown up if we don’t have a little bit more common sense NATO hadn’t actually encroached he is preemptively doing this you seem very reliant on accepting Putin’s world view Russia throughout its history has always believed in keeping some safety from the West which has repeatedly invaded uh Russia it’s good for superpowers to keep a little distance United States they they lied they cheated and they started the expansion it’s an argument you’ve espoused on Russian State tv yeah I tell it everywhere why are you not as censorious about Putin doing the thing you feel so angry about what you say America’s done if they took uh Ukraine as a member of NATO we will end up in nuclear war President Putin wants peace at least that’s what he wants you to believe the Russian dictator has for the first time outlined his terms for CE fire ceasefire in Ukraine he’s demanded the complete withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from four regions which are currently occupied by Russia which it claims to have annexed Italy’s Prime Minister Georgia Maloney speaking this weekend’s peace Summit of world leaders said he’s effectively telling Ukraine to withdraw from Ukraine but if Putin’s real aim was to feain innocence for his apologist and score another propaganda Victory he may have been successful what the debate all this I’m joined by Professor Jeffrey saaks re returning to uncensored Professor great to see you oh it’s great to be with you thank you so much purus we had a great reaction to our last debate uh which was as Lively and provocative as I hoped it would be so I hope we’ll get get the same again now um I just want to ask you this Putin peace plan isn’t really a peace plan what he’s saying is all the land I have illegally stolen I want to keep isn’t that what it boils down to well there are two issues uh one is no NATO enlarg M and the second is this territorial issue it involves Crimea and what they claim is the four regions of Russia to my mind this is overwhelmingly about the first issue is about NATO because that’s been the issue on the table for 30 years territory was not on the table until two years ago but for 30 years NATO was on the table I think the territorial issue if I may say uh are probably negotiable at least in part of course there’s been a war going on for 10 years now and an escalation during the last two years I think the non-negotiable parts of what Putin is saying I would guess really non-negotiable so we have to think about them is that NATO will not enlarge to Ukraine and I think Crimea is non-negotiable for uh Russia’s uh core security uh interests and perceptions and uh history so I think what’s really absolutely core to what President Putin is saying is he would like to stop the war he doesn’t want to take over Ukraine he doesn’t want to take more of Ukraine uh on the combat line right now on the contact line he doesn’t control all four of these provinces and I doubt uh that he would insist on that I do think that he would uh uh hold out for Crimea almost every Western analyst and expert agrees with that and there are many reasons for that but what I do think is at the core of this all along was Russia throughout its history has always believed in keeping some safety from the West which has repeatedly invaded uh Russia and after the end of the Soviet Union in 1991 the US and Germany had said to gorbachov and to yelson we won’t expand Nato one inch Eastward but then uh like always with the United States they they lied they cheated and they started the expansion and then uh the Russians I was observing this all along the first expansions which were in Central Europe didn’t come too close to Russia and they said we don’t like that you cheated you told us no uh but okay that’s Hungary Poland and Czech Republic that was 1999 under Clinton but then it just kept coming and kept coming and kept coming and they said with Rising decb and uh Rising fervor stop coming closer and their ultimate red line has been consistent it is Ukraine and Georgia why well it it goes back peers to uh the British Empire to 1853 to 1856 actually to Lord Palmerston he had an idea surround Russia in the Black Sea uh render Russia’s Fleet in the Black Sea in sasto which was there in 1853 just like it’s there in 2024 render it essentially inoperable control the Dells this is a long story uh and then Russia is a second or third rate power and President Putin is responding to what has been a a British Imperial attempt for uh7 75 years and a US attempt since 1991 basically to surround Russia with NATO and what Putin has been saying is don’t do that stop leave Ukraine as a uh a kind of buffer zone uh and Ukraine was perfectly happy with that and public opinion was perfectly happy with that and they didn’t want to join NATO and in 2009 they elected Victor yanukovich who promised them neutrality which was the promise that Ukraine itself had made in declaring its independence that they would be permanently a neutral country because they’re in between West and East they’re in between Europe and Western Europe or the European Union and Russia so they wanted just okay we’ll be we’ll be neutral but then the United States did team up to overthrow yanukovich in February 2014 and that’s when this war started that’s when Russia stopped saying well we’ll lease a base in Crimea rather we’ll take back Crimea we don’t want it to fall into NATO hands just like thear did not want uh sast stopel to fall into Palmer’s hands uh so this is basically a long long story I think the rest is negotiable uh I basically think either the US and Europe don’t understand what they’re doing which is not impossible or they’re still on what has been a 30-year neocon agenda which I know about in detail which is get NATO all the way to surround Russia because that was the plan of big new binski and Dick Cheney and others going right back to the 1990s they still want to do it and they think they can still accomplish this say I’m GNA take all all right with respect you’ve given a very very long answer but I come back to my initial question which is ultimately you know I I’m listen you’ve been through a lot of the history there and some of the points are arguable but a lot of people I’ve heard Express similar sentiments about some of the background to this and about Russia’s concern about the encroachment of NATO and so on but it it doesn’t change the fact that Russ Russia illegally invaded a European Sovereign Democratic country that has helped itself to vast sways of the land and the latest polls show that the vast majority of Ukrainian people do not want to seed an inch of the land that’s been taken to Vladimir Putin or the Russians and yeah he can say I was concerned about NATO encroachment but NATO hadn’t actually encroached so he is preemptively doing this and if ultimately he’s allowed to take this land what message does that send the rest of the world rest of Europe the other neighboring countries to Ukraine why should we have any confidence after Crimea after Georgia after Ukraine now that he wouldn’t just carry on attacking and invading other neighboring countries that’s where I find your I wouldn’t say trust I don’t think that’s the right word but you seem very reliant on accepting Putin’s world view rather than perhaps the Stark reality of the barbarism with which she’s executed this war yeah may maybe because I know too much about the United States because the first war in Europe after World War II was the US bombing of Belgrade for 78 days to change borders of a European State the idea was to break Serbia to create uh Kosovo as an enclave and then to install bondas steel which is the largest NATO base in the Balkans in the southwest Balkans so the US started this under Clinton uh that we will break the borders we will illegally bomb another country we didn’t have any un Authority this was a quote NATO mission to do that then I know the United States uh went to war repeatedly illegally uh in uh what it did in Afghanistan and then what it did in Iraq and then what it did in Syria which was uh the Obama Administration especially Obama and Hillary Clinton tasking the CIA to overthrow Bashar al-assad uh and then what it did with NATO illegally bombing Libya to taple morar Gaddafi uh and then what it did in Kiev in Fe February 2014 I happen to see some of that with my own eyes the US overthrew yanukovich together with right-wing Ukrainian military forces we overthrew a president and what’s interesting by the way is we overthrew yanukovich the day after the European Union Representatives had reached an agreement with yanukovich to have early elections a government of national unity and a standown of both sides that was agreed the next thing that happens is the opposition quote unquote says we don’t agree they stormed the government buildings and they deposed yanukovich and within hours the United States says yes we support the new government it didn’t say oh we had an agreement that’s unconstitutional what you did uh so we overthrew a government contrary to a promise that the European Union had made and by the way uh Russia the United States and the EU were parties to that agreement and the United States an hour afterwards backed the coup okay so everyone’s got a little bit to answer for in 2015 the uh Russians did not say we want the donbas back they said Peace should come through negotiations and negotiations between the ethnic Russians in the east of Ukraine and this uh new regime in Kev led to the Minsk 2 agreement the Minsk 2 agreement was voted by the UN Security Council unanimously it was signed by the government of Ukraine it was guaranteed explicitly by Germany and France and you know what and it’s been explained to me in person it was laughed at inside the US government this is after the UN Security Council unanimously accepted it the ukrainians said we don’t want to give autonomy to the region oh but that’s part of the treaty the US told them don’t worry about it Angela Merkel explained in desite in a notorious interview after the 20202 escalation she said oh you know we knew that Minsk 2 was just a a a holding pattern to give Ukraine time to build its strength no uh Minsk 2 was a un Security Council unanimously adopted treaty that was supposed to end the war so when it comes to who’s trustworthy who to believe and so forth I guess my problem Piers is I know the United States government uh I know it very well I I don’t trust them for a moment I want these two sides actually to sit down in front of the whole world and say these are the terms then the world can judge because we could get on paper clearly for both sides of the world we’re not going to overthrow governments anymore the United States needs to say we accept this agreement the United States needs to say Russia needs to say we’re not stepping one foot further than whatever the boundary is actually reached and NATO is not going to enlarge and let’s put it for the whole world to see you know once in a while treaties actually hold there an argument okay listen I hear I listen I hear you and it’s an argument you’ve espoused on Russian State TV for as well I’ve heard you do that yeah um absolutely I tell it everywhere right so and that’s fine you’ve been consistent I I get that but actually isn’t this if you look at it a different way a perfect illustration of why there should be NATO encroachment actually because if you go through the history since the start of World War II in 1939 it was Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that invaded Poland 1940 Soviet Union invaded the baltics 1940 Soviet Union annexed parts of Romania 56 Soviet Union invaded Hungary 68 Soviet Union invaded Czech Sakia now Poland Estonia Lithuania lvia Romania Hungary or Czechoslovakia did not invade Russia or the Soviet Union no threat emanated from those countries but they were attacked by the USSR St Russia and that’s why these countries wanted to join NATO and since they joined NATO none of them has been attacked by Russia again so if you were putting all that into the mix here you might say that’s a perfect illustration of NATO power deterring Russian aggression and that actually if Ukraine had speeded up uh its membership of NATO uh which many of the people in Ukraine were actually Keen to do if it had done that it might have had the protection against the illegal Invasion by Russia so in a way you could flip your argument on its head and say it almost proves the opposite which is that by by not being part of NATO Ukraine was vulnerable to the very attack that then happened just as it lost crime uh and my fear with Putin is I don’t trust him as far as I could throw him I take your point about russan about American uh military activity I was the editor of the Daily Mirror newspaper in England which led the campaign against the Iraq War which I thought was a senseless illegal uh Invasion as well and I I’ve been very critical of America yeah so you know it’s not like I’m a great U cheerleader for for what America’s done on the military stage but purely looking at this situation with Ukraine I just I just don’t see why allowing Putin to keep all this land is a good thing yeah i’ I’d ask you to consider uh a couple more dates uh one is uh 1955 fascinating date because in 1955 uh Austria very cleverly uh agreed to permanent neutrality on the basis that the Soviet Union would go home home and in the state treaty they adopted neutrality and the Soviet Union went home and that’s why Austria wasn’t part of the Iron Curtain for the decades that followed because they adopted neutrality and non-nato membership now it’s fascinating and I don’t want to take us uh into a long digression but the idea of the Soviet Union then was actually not only with regard to Austria but it was more strategic what they were saying was do the same with Germany which just killed 27 million of our people after all this was 1955 was just 10 years from the end of World War II neutralized Germany don’t make Germany a rearmed Cornerstone of something called NATO but make Germany neutral and then we can end the Cold War and this was no less the recommend or the recommendation of no less I should say than George Kennan himself the author of containment George Kennan for years in the second half of the 1950s said we’re missing the most obvious point a neutral Germany the Cold War could end he went on wreath lectures in BBC to say this I think it was 1957 if I remember correctly and this is fascinating we missed the opportunity to end the Cold War decades earlier the other date that I would urge you to think about is 1962 when the Soviet Union came close to the United States uh in Cuba the US said Monroe Doctrine you don’t come anywhere close to our hemisphere we nearly had nuclear Armageddon in 1962 the Soviet Union was doing nothing different from what the United States was doing in Turkey it was placing nuclear offensive missiles or weapons near the border of the adversary I actually kushev said I don’t want war with them I just want to do what they’re doing to us it nearly led to nuclear Annihilation it’s good for superpowers to keep a little distance the United States is expansionist if you say the Russians are expansionist or the Soviet Union is expansionist keep a little space between them and that’s what President Putin has been saying for more than two decades keep a little space be prudent we don’t want the United States right up against our border and the US has really provoked it not only overthrowing a Ukrainian president bad judgment in my opinion but also so unilaterally walking out of the anti-ballistic missile treaty in 2002 unilaterally placing ages missiles in Poland and Romania and when Russia say what are you doing you’re breaking the whole security architecture the US says and I quote it’s none of your business what we do NATO’s none of your business Russia that’s the formal literal position of the United States of America America that we can go anywhere with any Third Country including Ukraine or Georgia we can put our missiles wherever we want it’s none of your business Russia well come on purs this is going to get us all blown up if we don’t have a little bit more common sense okay but here’s what I’m struck by here’s what I’m struck by Professor talk to you a couple of times I find you fascinating to talk to you by the way and I I know you have a deep knowledge of all this albe it you have some interpretation of of what’s going on that’s different to what I have but I respect your knowledge um and your scholarship on this but I’m just struck that your language towards Russia and Putin is nowhere near as censorious as it is about uh America about your own country it’s true and I but I but I think that you know what I sit here in England and think it’s so weird to see such a learned American Professor who seems to think that a Russ that that America is the real problem here not Vladimir Putin and Russia when many other people would think the complete opposite Piers the problem is uh I I was born in 1954 and I’ve seen nothing but us Wars of choice and CIA Ops my whole life and since I became a International Development specialist more than 40 years ago I’ve seen many of them up close and I’m tired of them you know a very good book written in 2017 by a professor at Boston College named Lindsay oor has the title covert regime change she studies peers no fewer than 604 covert regime change operations by the United States almost all of them CIA LED 64 During the period 1947 to 19 89 I’ve had heads of state say to me personally Piers they’re going to they’re going to take me out was the term that one of them used and I assured them this president in uh it was Haiti Haitian president there no no no no we’re going to get all this sorted out in my naive way they walked this President this was arist out to an unmarked plane flew him 23 hours in this coup that the US arranged to Central African Republic and in a broad daylight launched a coup and when I tried to get the New York Times to at least cover the story I wanted to read it read about it I was told by the reporter on the beat oh our editors aren’t interested in that so you can have coups in broad daylight I’ve seen the United States launch Wars all over the world that Americans and others don’t even know were caused by the United States it was only decades after the fact that Z big binski told us that he had urged successfully Jimmy Carter to support the jihadists the mujahadin to try to overthrow the government in Afghanistan in 1979 to lure the Soviets into a trap that would be their Vietnam we messed up Afghanistan for more than four decades in that little typical us regime change if man okay but Professor look here’s my question if you feel so angry about so many as you put it illegal military operations invasions whatever you want to call them by the United States why do you not also feel that same level of anger When Vladimir Putin for whatever political reasons he wants to come up with about fears of NATO encroachment blah blah blah when he launches a fullscale invasion of Ukraine which is now a sovereign Democratic European country and well it’s not a democratic country but it’s a it it had a democratic election far more democratic than Russia it did it did a while ago it did a while ago under martial law it was certainly far more of a well before the War Began it was certainly far more of a democracy than Russia has been in recent decades you would certainly accept that wouldn’t you look I I think the point is so my point here’s my my point is why why are you not as why are you not as censorious about Putin doing the thing that you feel so angry about what you say America’s done all I want is when Putin says we’ll negotiate and here our terms I want the United States to say we’ll negotiate but we have different terms but we’ll sit down with you that’s all I’m asking but his terms his terms is reported by Russian State media on Friday the complete withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from the territories of donet Lans zapara and kerson after which peace negotiations can begin I mean that’s just you know what I I don’t believe that’s just taking taking a quarter of the country or even a third and saying I want to keep it okay yeah so what are our terms for negotiations come on this is negotiations you don’t get to keep any of it would be my terms well fine but the bottom line is something else the bottom Line’s really about NATO so this is you know if if the plan okay but that’s my point my point is if the plan if the if the plan of Biden is of course we’re going to keep pushing NATO then there’s no peace then we’re just in in open War and the one that dies is Ukraine in the end but if the maybe or maybe rather like all these other countries that the Soviet Union invaded maybe if Ukraine becomes a fully paid up member of NATO it actually stops Russia from being so aggressive constantly whether it was crime here in 2014 or whether it’s all these areas now in other words you you know power in power in I’m just telling you yeah I I I’m telling you the following in my assessment yeah uh if uh first of all it can’t become a member of NATO in the midst of a war this is anyway NATO Doctrine but if they if they if they took uh Ukraine as a member of NATO uh we will end up in nuclear war uh just like we nearly ended up in nuclear war over the Cuban Missile why would we why would we for the same reasons we didn’t because for in the Cuban Missile CR Comm sense prevailed right no it did it by the way it almost didn’t Prevail every everyone was for war except for a very small handful of people including thank God uh John F Kennedy and Nikita kushev and that was just about all that saved the world but the reason is for Russia Ukraine is their 2,100 kilometer border and they view this as an existential issue I can tell you for the US this is is a game this is the game of Risk if you know that board game this is big briny’s game spelled out in 1997 in his article in foreign affairs called a strategy for Eurasia let’s Corner Russia this is their game for Russia this is existential this is right on their border they don’t want the United States right on their again sorry to jump in but again again this is your inter ation of that but the other interpretation could be the other interpretation is that to stop Russia invading its neighboring countries that’s what NATO is about and it’s proven very successful all those all those countries that attacked before haven’t been attacked since because they’re part of NATO so this is this is it could be it’s the other argument could be but it no you’re right you’re right but then it could be nuclear war that’s all I’m saying but why would why would okay why would Vladimir Putin who is apparently Elon Musk says he’s the richest man on earth and loves his material things whether it’s Shadows or super Yachts or whatever it may be why would somebody with that mentality in other words not an Islamic fundamentalist who has nothing who wants to kill himself for the cause and believes he’s going to you know meet 70 virgins up in in uh in wherever they end up going um why is somebody with Putin’s materialistic capitalistic mentality why would he even contemplate Armageddon and losing everything that’s that’s not what he’s about he hasn’t got that mentality he’s not someone he’s not a suici b he well I I think it it’s useful for all of us uh and you and uh everybody listening to go online and read a a memorandum by one of our best diplomats William Burns who happens now to be CIA director but in 2008 was the US ambassador to Russia and he wrote a secret memo back to condalisa Rice Secretary of State uh Julian Assange enabled all of us to see the real discussion not The Superficial patter and narrative and he explained this isn’t about Putin this question of NATO this is the entire Russian political class everybody and the the N the memo famously is called net means net that for Russia this isn’t Putin this isn’t one person this isn’t a lark this is viewed by Russia as existential this is viewed by Russia as do not stand on our borders period especially now that the United States has abandoned unilaterally the anti-ballistic missile treaty it has abandoned the international nuclear force now stoltenberg is who’s well anyway he’s just parting the US saying we we are going to stock up on our nuclear armaments they’re not going to accept it’s not Putin it’s Russia and by the way you would feel the same way in their position and the United States absolutely felt the same way when that was tested and we have this Doctrine by the way which is even more remarkable since 1823 we’ve said no foreign powers in the entire Western Hemisphere not just on our border but the entire Western Hemisphere and that doctrine that Monroe Doctrine was reiterated I was sitting there when Donald Trump reiterated that in the UN General Assembly that was for the whole Western Hemisphere so it’s perfectly understandable and it’s not about Putin this is it’s about Russia’s absolute core National Security don’t come up to our border perfectly sensible Professor sex great to talk to you again I I find our conversations fasc wonderful to be with you I really really enjoyed thank you really appreciate it thank you very much

Economics professor and author Jeffrey Sachs has spent too long in the geo-political arena to take the official US policy on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine at face value. He calls for negotiations in regards to Vladimir Putin’s recent ‘peace’ deal, which demands that Ukraine hand over large swathes of land to Russia.

Although Jeffrey comes armed with a litany of crimes to lay at the doorstep of the collective west, Piers Morgan presses him on the central issues. Isn’t it strange that Putin hasn’t invaded a NATO member? And why doesn’t Sachs hold Putin to the same standard of conduct as the US government?

00:00 – Introduction
01:50 – Putin’s plan for peace
08:20 – “The US started this!”
15:10 – NATO encroachment or Russian propaganda?
21:30 – American Interference
27:20 – Will joining NATO save Ukraine?

Subscribe to stay up-to-date on all Uncensored content.

Follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on:
Twitter: https://x.com/PiersUncensored
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/piersmorganuncensored/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/piersmorganuncensored
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@piersmorganuncensored

Follow Piers Morgan on:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/piersmorgan
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/piersmorgan

#russianarmy #piersmorgan #putin #jeffreysachs #interview