Is NATO to blame for the Ukraine war? | LBC Debate

Is NATO to blame for the Ukraine war? | LBC Debate

when you hear uh Ben Wallace who I heard this morning coming out on the news rounds uh saying that NATO is a defensive Alliance uh this is the the uh the line that’s always trotted out the NATO is a defensive Alliance um which it may well be uh it may be the same exact defensive Alliance that actually attacked uh Belgrade the serbians in 1998 to protect covans now I’m not saying that that was the wrong thing to do quite the contrary I applaud NATO for taking that action I was full squar behind it but to say that it’s a defensive Alliance who decides what’s defensive and what’s offensive it also uh took part in uh in actions in Afghanistan post 911 again I don’t disagree with that quite the contrary I was fully supportive of those actions because um an egregious act had occurred on 911 and I think uh a response was absolutely merited and warranted uh but would you say that it was Defensive or offensive I mean you can make the same argument with the Laden about when you you you choose defense or offense it it lies in the eyes of the beholder does it not so I think this argument that NATO is purely a defensive Alliance does not stand up to scrutiny at all and if I’m a foreign policy realist and uh uh Kier Jes there um says that uh this is now falling out of fashion I tell you this uh I have actually read international relations so I know a few things about for policy and I follow it very very closely and I think Henry Kissinger quite frankly would completely disagree with K Jes and so would I I think that we have lost our marbles in the west when it comes to actually dealing with Concepts like the balance of power spheres of influence that you don’t go around um hanging around on the borders of a nuclear armed State whatever you think of the person and I’m know Vladimir Putin fan at all I can tell you so before anyone says that I’m a Putin apologist Alan idel farage please just stop please just stop and engage your brain and let’s have a proper discussion about this like mature adults and actually we can disagree maybe agree to disagree I’m no fan of Vladimir Putin I’m no fan of someone who condemns um and and vilifies and subjugates any form of uh uh people against him in his own country Al Alexa nalni I don’t I don’t respect someone like that nor do I applaud them all I’m saying is from a from policy point of view I think this was remiss on the part of the EU and NATO I think they overextended and I don’t think they provoked Russia I wouldn’t use that language but I certainly don’t think it helped uh what is your view uh did the West provoke Russia into war with Ukraine I don’t agree with N N’s party I’m totally against no no that’s fine of course but but but just in terms of the substance of the point forget about the the Party politics of it we’re discussing the substance and I think you’ve got a very strong View and I understand why what do you say to James cleverly who said that Mr farage was echoing Putin’s vile justification for the brutal invasion of Ukraine and there are many others John Healey labor Shadow defense uh secretary said this these are disgraceful comments which reveal the true face of Nigel farage a Putin apologist who should never be trusted with our nation security I mean do you think David that this is just turning into let’s all bash farage rather than deal with the substance of what he’s saying here well let’s all bash Putin because I don’t agree with Putin I’m not a supporter of Putin but this is Russia the Ordinary People of Russia I’ve learned from The Experience after Nazi Nazi Western invasion of Russia killing 27 million Russians they are well aware of the West’s attacks on Russia they’ve been going on for centuries this this and this is the last this is the last one they are not going to put up with it any longer Putin is only a reflection of what ordinary and I have friends in Ukraine and in Russia who are also friends amongst themselves but this this is a direct attack on Russia from the United States and the West it’s only like you said earlier on when the Russians put nuclear um armaments in Cuba the Americans been put up for it for a moment well I I can honestly this is where I think that people who come out with this complete Dil need to actually answer the question of exactly if this happened on the borders if this happened in Mexico would the US put up with this for a second the answer to that I think is quite clear Finland and Sweden adopted a position of neutrality for a long time and nobody came out with the same vitriol about that go on explain your point well for since the second world war both those countries adopted a process of not not joining and not being in NATO because they thought that it would make uh their relationships with Russia more difficult and that was explicitly stated and now they’ve now they’ve both gone the other way after the UK invasion of Ukraine are you actually saying that Russia has under what’s your point is that Russia’s undermined its own um position with those two states is that the point no my point is that neutrality worked for 78 years right and that you know we don’t know what’s going to happen now but it was C considered to be a sensible and rational policy which was not criticized in the West for those significantly for those 78 years and was a model of a way of adopting neutrality I also think that you know there was obviously um some degree of collaboration and uh they were both they both have highly successful militaries um and protection and you know that is an Avenue that uh could have been considered for um Ukraine and they’re also very independent and Democratic why do you think grahe that that was not considered for Ukraine because quite honestly if it was I mean Putin himself had hinted at that that that would have been acceptable to him if it was neutral what he did not want and what he could not fathom is either Ukraine joining the EU or joining NATO if it was neutral if there was some neutral status that had been agreed by all parties around it and if the West had been very clear to Ukraine that look we understand you want to join NATO for your own security we’re not going to have that because we we do not want to risk um uh upsetting a nuclear armed power on the on the borders of Europe on the Eastern flank of Europe some arrangement could have been a reach could it not g well I think so Arrangements were tried to make I think very naively by uh nato in that they were going to use Uh Russian tank carriers in 2002 and I thought then and think now whoa this is a bit too soon we don’t know how stable Russia is and we don’t necessarily want to be terribly integrated with what they’re doing so I think there’s generally been on in both directions a complete degree of naivity and a lack of understanding of the position of Russia and the nature of Russians Russia’s thinking and that it has all happened far too quickly and uh naively and despite the great intellects in the Diplomatic service who are rarely on almost always we have military people very rarely there are former diplomats who come on to discuss the issue even though usually their academic qualifications are far superior there’s so much black and white around this subject that oh if you if you take the point of view that you are raising this morning you are an apologist Putin you love Nigro far or the Reform Party you’re a fascist uh or whatever and and you can’t have the view that you have and still agree with a lot of what the West is saying and I I I think that um Nigel Farish has a lot of Truth in what he says in fact even before the war started ad nauseum LBC had Lord bannard who used to be the head of the Armed Forces of the UK who said many times he is sure that the West are reassuring Putin behind the scenes that NATO will never allow Ukraine to be accepted in they did for years it’s been documented by former Bridge Ambassador for exctly exactly and gorbachov was concerned about Ukraine yelon was concerned about and your point you made about John Major I i’ that’s everywhere to see uh there’s so many documents and the problem is you have people it’s like uh with the CO as somebody you said you can always get a doctor or a you can always get an expert to to come to one point of view and you can get anybody on to say oh it’s all Russian propaganda it’s not and I think that NATO were very foolish I think that Trump and I don’t like him I don’t think this war would have happened if Trump would have been president I think he would have made clear to Putin he will never allow Ukraine to join NATO because it’s all very well you’ve got a caller before saying oh you know they’re yeah what do you say to Jason though Jason was making a good point though James to be fair right he was saying hang on a second these are independent sovereign states they can do what they want uh some of them were part of the USSR they want to run away as quickly as possible and the quickest way of protecting themselves is to join a military defensive Alliance what’s wrong with that sure sure they anybody can they they’re entitled they’re free to talk to Nato but at the same time NATO is free to say to Ukraine listen uh uh uh uh Mr President we would love you to join us but it is not actually conducive to peace in the region and I think that’s the irony is is supposed to be this uh uh peace organization that prevents war and I think in fact it is ironically caused the War by not being a little bit interesting thank you James I think it’s a very powerful point no absolutely absolutely not did the EU or NATO have anything to do with Vladimir Putin invading the UK in exactly the same way the EU and Nat were not for not to blame when Putin’s for Putin’s war in Chia or Putin’s war in Georgia the fact is Vladimir Putin actually had a Sovereign Nation as a buffer between Poland which is a member of the EU and a member of NATO he had that buffer if he takes the Ukraine in his land grab and he’s successful with that he will be bordering a NATO and EU member states Jason you’re sorry on that one I’ve got to pick you up the whole entire reason why or one of the reasons that was given was the West Was consistently flirting with Ukraine on NATO membership and it’s been doing so since 2008 no we we have to disagree because true disagree Jason wait wait wait you’re you’re completely misunderstanding that because NATO and the European Union of both voluntary membership states you have to apply as a sovereign independent be aced as a m it’s not like the EU everyone knows what the the EU exists right everybody knows is out there everybody knows that NATO is out there if a particular country in the territory says look I’m really interested in being becoming a member of your Club then of course the club’s going to talk to them that is not provoking a third member a third country a third Sovereign Nation to say Hang on we’re provoking you now because we’re talking to XYZ over there are you actually being serious Jason I mean just step back for a second I just step back for a second and look at this way if Mexico wanted to join a so-called defensive pro-russian Alliance right do you think the US would stand for that for a minute Mexico and the United States are part of the the North American Trade Agreement right so and so is Canada so that is extremely unlikely to happen the fact is happened in Cuba 1962 that’s true and also Trump was disband it and then rebuilt it and it’s just a mess over there um but the the point being you cannot invade another state because you’re afraid that they’re talking else point of sovereignty you not agree with Sovereign I completely agree with you that you cannot go around invading other states absolutely agree I do not in for one moment agree that Vladimir Putin should have gone into another state absolutely not however do I think that the that NATO and the West Was remiss in expanding eastwards yes I do absolutely that is not the same thing it is not the same thing saying that they gave a green light to Putin to go and in go inherently be expansionist and go and invade another stat it’s two separate things and we should be able to hold two separate ideas in our heads so do I think that the West Was sensible absolutely not R roll back a second Ali roll back a second so on the same token do you think that the Soviet Union was wrong to go go around land grabbing all the all the the neighboring countries to Russia I know I think any grabbing is completely wrong including Colonial Britain land grabbing as well I think any land grabbing of any kind is wrong and should be resisted and I also think I also think Jason just on this point I also think international law should be respected and people shouldn’t go around invading Sovereign States including like going into Iraq on false premises I also think that I agree with you on that there you go um however if if the Soviet Union’s expansion was something that you oppose yeah then you have to have some kind of Defense organization to stop the Soviet Union continuing to expand especially when the countries around like Georgia Chia Ukraine they all wanted to leave they did not want to be a part of the Soviet Union a unable to do it by no that is that is a very good point and I’m glad you’ve raised it because the argument and you’ve made it in a very measured way Jason so I thank you

Nigel Farage has been criticised by politicians across the political spectrum for saying the West “provoked” Russia into invading Ukraine.

Ali Miraj makes it clear he is not a Putin apologist and wonder whether Nigel Farage’s view has any truth to it.

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer told LBC: “I would say the comments from Farage are disgraceful and I think everybody who stands for office in our parliament ought to be clear that we stand with Ukraine, that Russia is the aggressor and Putin bears the responsibility for Russian aggression and will be held to account for it. Rishi Sunak said this morning that the comments were “completely wrong” and “play into Putin’s hands”.

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