> He was told he could not buy one or pay a penalty and a travel incident report was filed by the Northern conductor. Northern has asked him to explain what happened in writing within two weeks and warned that legal proceedings could follow.
Train people can be a weird bunch half the time. Guy made a mistake, tried to put it right, just give him the penalty if you must and get on with your day.
So many services are dirty, cancelled, late, or mindboggling expensive and that’s all fine, not a concern for train companies apparently. But if you make a slight admin error when getting your ticket, they can’t wait to dig their claws in.
The article doesn’t clear this up. Can someone explain please.
It says the rail card can’t be used between 0400 and 1000 but the train he was on was the 1029.
>They stipulate the card cannot be used for fares below £12 between 04:00 and 10:00, Monday to Friday.
>The rule does not apply in July and August, when Mr Williamson used his railcard on several similar journeys without falling foul of the rules.
This is unacceptably deceptive of the rail companies.
>”I said, ‘I am really sorry, this is my mistake, can I buy a new ticket?’,” Mr Williamson said.
>He was told he could not buy one or pay a penalty and a travel incident report was filed by the Northern conductor.
So he offered to pay a fine and buy a new ticket and they refused. Is this supposed to be an example that they’re hardnuts about this? Because all it’s making them look like is assholes persecuting a young man for no good reason.
I saw OP post about this on twitter.
They mentioned they purposely scrolled down their app to Tickets listed after 10am because they were cheaper and never stopped to wonder why the tickets listed after 10am (despite being he same ticket) were cheaper.
Rail bosses should be in court for how much they’ve robbed British workers over the last 30 years.
He was issued with a valid ticket. And if it was invalid, it should not have been issued or been clearly indicated at POS that it was only to be used during off peak times.
What is their defene when you can go online for a ticket and pay more for getting a ticket from a stations master? I save £20 by getting my ticket from a actual person than from using the machines or online where prices all sem to differ.
Combination or poor clarity over the restrictions of the railcard (which themselves are stupid – just make them valid on all trains, all the time) and jobsworths enjoying their meagre power. British trains already have an absurdly complicated ticketing system so it’s easy to make mistakes.
>They stipulate the card cannot be used for fares below £12 between 04:00 and 10:00, Monday to Friday. The rule does not apply in July and August, when Mr Williamson used his railcard on several similar journeys without falling foul of the rules.
This is a daft rule.
The sensible course of action for the conductor is just to make him pay the difference or buy a new ticket. Nobody loses out and everyone saves time, money and stress, and can move on with their lives.
>Mr Williamson, a university graduate, was travelling to London via Manchester to take his driving theory test when the conductor told him his ticket was not valid because of the railcard’s terms and conditions.
I know this isn’t the main point of the article, but it seems bonkers he had to go to London to take his theory test. I’m assuming there must be a test centre in Manchester or Sheffield or other places much closer to Glossop than London. I’ve heard stories of people having to wait absurdly long to take their theory and this just seems to be more evidence of chronic underinvestment across all services.
I have a 90 min train commute in Australia. We basically have an Oyster card like system where you tap on or off it charges you the corret fare (which is a max of $10) ish per day. You can travel on any service. They made the fares cheaper specifically to encourage people to use the train instead of driving. The UK system seems like it’s specifically designed to encourage people to drive instead.
I had a similar issue about 10 years ago. My ticket was valid to one point on the line. I fell asleep and missed my stop. Conductor tried to issue me a penalty for going one more stop.
I refused to pay and ended up with a court summons.
Was already for my day in court and the legal representative of the train company took one look at the notes on the morning of the case and said that he’s not winning this and withdrew the case.
Never got to explain my case in court.
I was going to suggest renationalising the railways but I realise now that it would be better for everyone if instead the entire country was just sunk into the sea.
I used to be a conductor. Every single depot had at least one of these bellend conductors who wank over being able to fuck someone over if they have had a bad day. I’d say 90% wouldn’t do shit like this is if it was an honest mistake.
A. I could never be fucked with the paperwork. B. Why create conflict when you have several courses of action –
Warn him that next time you won’t let them off Charge a new ticket Pretend you didn’t see it Words of advice
Also, someone below said conductors are incentivised to do this to the public. They aren’t. You’re actually more incentivised to issue a new ticket as it pushes you closer to a depot average of tickets sold that managers love to wank over. As an added bonus you get 5% on any tickets sold from your machine, so this guard was a real tool.
If a University graduate can’t get his head around a simple concept then he’s not got much hope.
Did anyone ask him why he was travelling to London for a theory test too?
It doesn’t always seem like it but judges are reasonable people.
I would be interested to hear what the judge has to say in this case.
Interesting how staff never seem to be brave enough to confront the guys who you regularly see hurdling over the ticket barriers on free rides…
For anyone thinking that ‘well, a nationalised rail operator wouldn’t act this way’ this was on a Northern Trains which is run by the DfT.
We have a long way to go for the public to regain any sort of trust in the railways, nationalising it isn’t enough.
> They stipulate the card cannot be used for fares below £12 between 04:00 and 10:00, Monday to Friday. The rule does not apply in July and August, when Mr Williamson used his railcard on several similar journeys without falling foul of the rules.
How ridiculous to have such confusing terms of usage. No wonder he didn’t know when it keeps changing the bar on when it can be used
Train law is very serious and they can and will take you to court over this stuff. It happens a lot and if you’re interested lots of people post on this very helpful forum to help people write letters to the rail operators:
My uncles northern rain ticket man, he doesn’t give a fuck. No ticket, no problem. Going somewhere and it’s cheaper to get 2 tickets he’ll tell you. Like he says to me, the fucking trains going that way anyways, I’m not getting my day ruined because I challenged some nut job who pulled a tool on me over £3.70.
I’m starting to think it really doesn’t pay to be polite and play by the rules. I saw a couple of men just tell the inspector to basically fuck off, and unless the police were waiting for them which I doubt they just got away with it.
So he was unable to buy a discounted rocket for his journey as it was before 1000am, so he bought a discounted ticket for a later service (10.29) and used it for the earlier service.
This doesn’t sound like a simple mistake to me, sounds like fare evasion which he is being prosecuted for.
It’s funny how as a native you’re more likely to be fined / prosecuted for actually having a ticket than the folks that fare dodge at Bicester Village.
I love this social contract.
The law is outdated and needs to change.
Failure to present a valid ticket is a criminal offence in the English law. There’s no room for any mistake, not even the slightest one. You have an e-ticket on your phone, so when an inspector comes you fail to present it – congratulations, you’re now a criminal. The company has an absolute power to bring you to court should they wish so, which WILL result in you losing several hundred pounds and a getting criminal conviction on your record. They can let you go, give you a penalty fare, or offer and out of court settlement, but the things is that it’s totally up to them to decide what to do. You have practically zero right in this situation, and if the company wants to prosecute you, your only option is to literally beg them to settle out of court, which they have no obligation to accept.
What makes it worse is that the rules are applied inconsistently. Many times if you board a train without a ticket, the guard will just sell you one. Which will make a situation when you’re ticket checked by a revenue protection officer and then referred for prosecution even a bigger shock.
The rules themselves can sometimes be so complex that even the automatic barriers and railway staff make mistakes. So you can go through the barrier even if you technically have an invalid ticket, for which you can be prosecuted, or you can be denied entry even if your ticket is perfectly valid. It’s a mess, honestly, with all the responsibility and risk put on the passenger.
The absolute cheek of Northern.
I’d like to get the 19:08 from Deansgate, they’ll sell me a ticket for it. It doesn’t exist, it’s cancelled everyday.
Sometimes they just cancel all the trains I could get home for a few hours at a time, but they’ve got a good reason right? “has been cancelled due to a short notice timetable alteration”
So, no. They might as well just shout “FUCK YOU”.
If he was an old lady they’d let him off, I see it all the time where the ticket person can’t wait to throw the book at younger people but when an OAP makes a mistake they always get away with it.
Last year I got on the train in Bolton and bought a ticket to Salford Crescent instead of Salford Central. The price would have been identical, they are less than 1km apart.
I spoke to the conductor and he said it’ll be fine and I could carry onto the next stop. I got to Salford Central 1 minute later and the gate attendants there refused to accept my story and insisted on taking my details to be sent for prosecution.
I only got away with it because I refused to show ID and gave them a fake name and address. Absolute bastards they were.
If the judge has any sense he’ll fine Northern heavily for wasting court resources on this bollocks.
Man I catch a tram occasionally round Brum, im a tradesman and often do work in the city and go to my van outside the congestion zone.
and the old fella who works on there sees me in my gear and tool. Box and stuff everytime he gets everyone’s ticket or payment and skips me and winks.
Spoke to him one day when I finished early and it was a bit quieter and I thanked him he said he was tradesman himself before and he sees where I got off and it ain’t far
Let’s me off every single time sometimes I don’t work there for months and he still remembers me moans a lot about the ulez charges think that’s why he does it…..dunno if he does it for all trades or it’s just me??
They could Learn a lot from Tram man though….
No actually it’s ok. I’ve been told on here that the courts are so backed up with important police work, so important that we can’t expect thieves and assaulters to be punished right now – that’s there’s no chance this would ever go through the courts.
Right?
Northern (now the Government) are the fucking worst. They have threatened prosecution over £0.00 before
>Mr Williamson, a university graduate, was travelling to London via Manchester to take his driving theory test when the conductor told him his ticket was not valid because of the railcard’s terms and conditions.
Probably off to his test hoping he passes so he never has to use public transport ever again. What a great example for the next generation.
>A Northern spokesman said: “As with all train operators across the UK, everyone has a duty to buy a valid ticket or obtain a ‘promise to pay’ voucher before they board the train and be able to present it to the conductor or revenue protection officer during a ticket inspection.
>“The overwhelming majority of our customers – upwards of 96% – do just that.”
I understand that Northern aren’t exactly going to say “Yeah the rules are basically impossible for anyone to know without being caught out once but this response is particularly stand-offish imo. Especially the line about the majority of our customers.
It’s called Anytime by Northern. It’s made with bits of real panther, so you know it’s good. They’ve done studies, you know. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time!
Complicated rules that anyone could fall foul of, that’ll be modern Britain. Threats of courts! It’s amazing how far these things have gone, and no politicians ever seem to care.
No one is going to prison or paying a massive fine for this. Dude probably made money from the newspaper..
Any judge.. will look at this, roll eyes.. and move on.
Are articles like this supposed to encourage rail travel?
“I hope you study our arcane ticket rules or pay even more than the outrageous (most expensive in Europe)fair you already did”
Post this in the UK rail sub and they’re will be a majority defending the rail company, that place is almost exclusively frequented by rail employees that accept zero criticism of their shoddy service.
if he was in a car nothing of this would be happening, get into cars people
I got had by this when I was a student; bought an on-peak ticket with my 18-25 railcard to go to an interview. got clobbered by the conductor and fined on the spot (either £80 or £100) with token court threats.
Unfortunately I think it’s important for all British citizens to go through this at least once to realise how onerous our bureaucracy is. Sure as fuck haven’t fallen foul of anything similar since. .. in the UK at least.
Fuck you Berlin.
Train companies can absolutely go fuck themselves. Dude made a mistake and offered to rectify it.
Consider how fucking awful they are. Literally every time my other half needs to use one they cancel, delay, change and everything else under the sun. They offer no alternatives, have left her stranded in stations with nothing operating to where she needs to go next. They can fucking do one.
waste of court time. I’m sure they will settle this before going to court.
94% of people get the right ticket. Can we take a step back 6% get the wrong is a lot of people when you think how many people use the train system. Clearly there is a bigger problem if that many people are struggling to get tickets.
41 comments
> He was told he could not buy one or pay a penalty and a travel incident report was filed by the Northern conductor. Northern has asked him to explain what happened in writing within two weeks and warned that legal proceedings could follow.
Train people can be a weird bunch half the time. Guy made a mistake, tried to put it right, just give him the penalty if you must and get on with your day.
So many services are dirty, cancelled, late, or mindboggling expensive and that’s all fine, not a concern for train companies apparently. But if you make a slight admin error when getting your ticket, they can’t wait to dig their claws in.
The article doesn’t clear this up. Can someone explain please.
It says the rail card can’t be used between 0400 and 1000 but the train he was on was the 1029.
>They stipulate the card cannot be used for fares below £12 between 04:00 and 10:00, Monday to Friday.
>The rule does not apply in July and August, when Mr Williamson used his railcard on several similar journeys without falling foul of the rules.
This is unacceptably deceptive of the rail companies.
>”I said, ‘I am really sorry, this is my mistake, can I buy a new ticket?’,” Mr Williamson said.
>He was told he could not buy one or pay a penalty and a travel incident report was filed by the Northern conductor.
So he offered to pay a fine and buy a new ticket and they refused. Is this supposed to be an example that they’re hardnuts about this? Because all it’s making them look like is assholes persecuting a young man for no good reason.
I saw OP post about this on twitter.
They mentioned they purposely scrolled down their app to Tickets listed after 10am because they were cheaper and never stopped to wonder why the tickets listed after 10am (despite being he same ticket) were cheaper.
Rail bosses should be in court for how much they’ve robbed British workers over the last 30 years.
He was issued with a valid ticket. And if it was invalid, it should not have been issued or been clearly indicated at POS that it was only to be used during off peak times.
What is their defene when you can go online for a ticket and pay more for getting a ticket from a stations master? I save £20 by getting my ticket from a actual person than from using the machines or online where prices all sem to differ.
Combination or poor clarity over the restrictions of the railcard (which themselves are stupid – just make them valid on all trains, all the time) and jobsworths enjoying their meagre power. British trains already have an absurdly complicated ticketing system so it’s easy to make mistakes.
>They stipulate the card cannot be used for fares below £12 between 04:00 and 10:00, Monday to Friday.
The rule does not apply in July and August, when Mr Williamson used his railcard on several similar journeys without falling foul of the rules.
This is a daft rule.
The sensible course of action for the conductor is just to make him pay the difference or buy a new ticket. Nobody loses out and everyone saves time, money and stress, and can move on with their lives.
>Mr Williamson, a university graduate, was travelling to London via Manchester to take his driving theory test when the conductor told him his ticket was not valid because of the railcard’s terms and conditions.
I know this isn’t the main point of the article, but it seems bonkers he had to go to London to take his theory test. I’m assuming there must be a test centre in Manchester or Sheffield or other places much closer to Glossop than London. I’ve heard stories of people having to wait absurdly long to take their theory and this just seems to be more evidence of chronic underinvestment across all services.
I have a 90 min train commute in Australia. We basically have an Oyster card like system where you tap on or off it charges you the corret fare (which is a max of $10) ish per day. You can travel on any service. They made the fares cheaper specifically to encourage people to use the train instead of driving. The UK system seems like it’s specifically designed to encourage people to drive instead.
I had a similar issue about 10 years ago. My ticket was valid to one point on the line. I fell asleep and missed my stop. Conductor tried to issue me a penalty for going one more stop.
I refused to pay and ended up with a court summons.
Was already for my day in court and the legal representative of the train company took one look at the notes on the morning of the case and said that he’s not winning this and withdrew the case.
Never got to explain my case in court.
I was going to suggest renationalising the railways but I realise now that it would be better for everyone if instead the entire country was just sunk into the sea.
I used to be a conductor. Every single depot had at least one of these bellend conductors who wank over being able to fuck someone over if they have had a bad day. I’d say 90% wouldn’t do shit like this is if it was an honest mistake.
A. I could never be fucked with the paperwork.
B. Why create conflict when you have several courses of action –
Warn him that next time you won’t let them off
Charge a new ticket
Pretend you didn’t see it
Words of advice
Also, someone below said conductors are incentivised to do this to the public. They aren’t. You’re actually more incentivised to issue a new ticket as it pushes you closer to a depot average of tickets sold that managers love to wank over. As an added bonus you get 5% on any tickets sold from your machine, so this guard was a real tool.
If a University graduate can’t get his head around a simple concept then he’s not got much hope.
Did anyone ask him why he was travelling to London for a theory test too?
It doesn’t always seem like it but judges are reasonable people.
I would be interested to hear what the judge has to say in this case.
Interesting how staff never seem to be brave enough to confront the guys who you regularly see hurdling over the ticket barriers on free rides…
For anyone thinking that ‘well, a nationalised rail operator wouldn’t act this way’ this was on a Northern Trains which is run by the DfT.
We have a long way to go for the public to regain any sort of trust in the railways, nationalising it isn’t enough.
> They stipulate the card cannot be used for fares below £12 between 04:00 and 10:00, Monday to Friday.
The rule does not apply in July and August, when Mr Williamson used his railcard on several similar journeys without falling foul of the rules.
How ridiculous to have such confusing terms of usage. No wonder he didn’t know when it keeps changing the bar on when it can be used
Train law is very serious and they can and will take you to court over this stuff. It happens a lot and if you’re interested lots of people post on this very helpful forum to help people write letters to the rail operators:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/disputes-prosecutions.152/
My uncles northern rain ticket man, he doesn’t give a fuck. No ticket, no problem. Going somewhere and it’s cheaper to get 2 tickets he’ll tell you. Like he says to me, the fucking trains going that way anyways, I’m not getting my day ruined because I challenged some nut job who pulled a tool on me over £3.70.
I’m starting to think it really doesn’t pay to be polite and play by the rules. I saw a couple of men just tell the inspector to basically fuck off, and unless the police were waiting for them which I doubt they just got away with it.
So he was unable to buy a discounted rocket for his journey as it was before 1000am, so he bought a discounted ticket for a later service (10.29) and used it for the earlier service.
This doesn’t sound like a simple mistake to me, sounds like fare evasion which he is being prosecuted for.
It’s funny how as a native you’re more likely to be fined / prosecuted for actually having a ticket than the folks that fare dodge at Bicester Village.
I love this social contract.
The law is outdated and needs to change.
Failure to present a valid ticket is a criminal offence in the English law. There’s no room for any mistake, not even the slightest one. You have an e-ticket on your phone, so when an inspector comes you fail to present it – congratulations, you’re now a criminal. The company has an absolute power to bring you to court should they wish so, which WILL result in you losing several hundred pounds and a getting criminal conviction on your record. They can let you go, give you a penalty fare, or offer and out of court settlement, but the things is that it’s totally up to them to decide what to do. You have practically zero right in this situation, and if the company wants to prosecute you, your only option is to literally beg them to settle out of court, which they have no obligation to accept.
What makes it worse is that the rules are applied inconsistently. Many times if you board a train without a ticket, the guard will just sell you one. Which will make a situation when you’re ticket checked by a revenue protection officer and then referred for prosecution even a bigger shock.
The rules themselves can sometimes be so complex that even the automatic barriers and railway staff make mistakes. So you can go through the barrier even if you technically have an invalid ticket, for which you can be prosecuted, or you can be denied entry even if your ticket is perfectly valid. It’s a mess, honestly, with all the responsibility and risk put on the passenger.
The absolute cheek of Northern.
I’d like to get the 19:08 from Deansgate, they’ll sell me a ticket for it.
It doesn’t exist, it’s cancelled everyday.
Sometimes they just cancel all the trains I could get home for a few hours at a time, but they’ve got a good reason right?
“has been cancelled due to a short notice timetable alteration”
So, no. They might as well just shout “FUCK YOU”.
If he was an old lady they’d let him off, I see it all the time where the ticket person can’t wait to throw the book at younger people but when an OAP makes a mistake they always get away with it.
Last year I got on the train in Bolton and bought a ticket to Salford Crescent instead of Salford Central. The price would have been identical, they are less than 1km apart.
I spoke to the conductor and he said it’ll be fine and I could carry onto the next stop. I got to Salford Central 1 minute later and the gate attendants there refused to accept my story and insisted on taking my details to be sent for prosecution.
I only got away with it because I refused to show ID and gave them a fake name and address. Absolute bastards they were.
If the judge has any sense he’ll fine Northern heavily for wasting court resources on this bollocks.
Man I catch a tram occasionally round Brum, im a tradesman and often do work in the city and go to my van outside the congestion zone.
and the old fella who works on there sees me in my gear and tool. Box and stuff everytime he gets everyone’s ticket or payment and skips me and winks.
Spoke to him one day when I finished early and it was a bit quieter and I thanked him he said he was tradesman himself before and he sees where I got off and it ain’t far
Let’s me off every single time sometimes I don’t work there for months and he still remembers me moans a lot about the ulez charges think that’s why he does it…..dunno if he does it for all trades or it’s just me??
They could Learn a lot from Tram man though….
No actually it’s ok. I’ve been told on here that the courts are so backed up with important police work, so important that we can’t expect thieves and assaulters to be punished right now – that’s there’s no chance this would ever go through the courts.
Right?
Northern (now the Government) are the fucking worst. They have threatened prosecution over £0.00 before
>Mr Williamson, a university graduate, was travelling to London via Manchester to take his driving theory test when the conductor told him his ticket was not valid because of the railcard’s terms and conditions.
Probably off to his test hoping he passes so he never has to use public transport ever again. What a great example for the next generation.
>A Northern spokesman said: “As with all train operators across the UK, everyone has a duty to buy a valid ticket or obtain a ‘promise to pay’ voucher before they board the train and be able to present it to the conductor or revenue protection officer during a ticket inspection.
>“The overwhelming majority of our customers – upwards of 96% – do just that.”
I understand that Northern aren’t exactly going to say “Yeah the rules are basically impossible for anyone to know without being caught out once but this response is particularly stand-offish imo. Especially the line about the majority of our customers.
It’s called Anytime by Northern. It’s made with bits of real panther, so you know it’s good. They’ve done studies, you know. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time!
Complicated rules that anyone could fall foul of, that’ll be modern Britain. Threats of courts! It’s amazing how far these things have gone, and no politicians ever seem to care.
No one is going to prison or paying a massive fine for this. Dude probably made money from the newspaper..
Any judge.. will look at this, roll eyes.. and move on.
Are articles like this supposed to encourage rail travel?
“I hope you study our arcane ticket rules or pay even more than the outrageous (most expensive in Europe)fair you already did”
Post this in the UK rail sub and they’re will be a majority defending the rail company, that place is almost exclusively frequented by rail employees that accept zero criticism of their shoddy service.
if he was in a car nothing of this would be happening, get into cars people
I got had by this when I was a student; bought an on-peak ticket with my 18-25 railcard to go to an interview. got clobbered by the conductor and fined on the spot (either £80 or £100) with token court threats.
Unfortunately I think it’s important for all British citizens to go through this at least once to realise how onerous our bureaucracy is. Sure as fuck haven’t fallen foul of anything similar since. .. in the UK at least.
Fuck you Berlin.
Train companies can absolutely go fuck themselves. Dude made a mistake and offered to rectify it.
Consider how fucking awful they are. Literally every time my other half needs to use one they cancel, delay, change and everything else under the sun. They offer no alternatives, have left her stranded in stations with nothing operating to where she needs to go next. They can fucking do one.
waste of court time. I’m sure they will settle this before going to court.
94% of people get the right ticket. Can we take a step back 6% get the wrong is a lot of people when you think how many people use the train system. Clearly there is a bigger problem if that many people are struggling to get tickets.