Rumour has it there are still a few dick Picts over in Helgin running about…
Brythonic was spoken up to the Clyde/Tay line and probably beyond it by the Picts.
As someone mentioned Welsh and Wales is derived from Germanic for ‘Foreigner’.
Brythonic developed into Old Welsh around the time of this map and in the area of what is now Southern Scotland developed into the Cumbric language.
The oldest existing Welsh heroic poetry by Aneirin originated in Gododdin in what is now called Lothian dating from the 6th Century and the people of this region were/are called ‘Yr gwr yr hen ogledd’ in Welsh meaning ‘the men of the old north’, and the most recent genetic research seems to be saying that they are still there.
Hol up. You saying Wales held the most land in the UK at one point? I did not know that if it’s true.
Oops, All Welsh!
Not sure how they can be English colonies when England didn’t exist for another 400 years
Obviously ([as per comment from u/f8rter](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/s/vHwFcqCtR9)) calling them “English” is nonsensically ahistoric… but OTOH I love them being labelled “English colonies”. Bloody English immigrants 😂
For the folk decrying the map as wildly in accurate. Kind of but you have to take into account that it’s clearly several decades old (at least).
The fact is that due to the comparative scarcity of sources we’re never going to get a full picture of what the division of the British Isles was like in the migration-era/early-medieval period. A major problem will always be precisely distinguishing between what polities controlled where at a given time and how this relates to culture of the local inhabitants.
Hopefully more accurate broad strokes is the best we can work towards.
Oh thank god, I’m not Welsh /j
Weren’t the Picts Brythonic rather than Gaels? The Gaels came over from Ireland and formed the Dál Riata in the West with which it’s theorised the Picts merged, or were assimilated into.
When you actually look at the name ‘Scotland’ in terms of who our descendants were, then you have to say we were named after the guys who arrived in the last 10 minutes. The patchwork quilt of tribes all over the British isles was our true legacy and was the normal situation for the majority of our history going back thousands of years. Tribes like the Dumnonii, Selgovae, Votadini, and many more were example of some first century tribes the Romans fought in Scotland. There was many unnamed more for millennia before them and the later Picts.
Some of these ancient Scottish tribes had lands that went deep into what is now England. There was no sense of Scotland/England to our ancient ancestors, as borders were tribal and fluid, not national. For millennia that was the way it was – and our true historical state – if time was the judge of that. The very idea of being Scottish or English is another ‘last 10 minute’ idea that bypasses our true legacy. The patchwork quilt of tribes all over the British isles is what we were for the vast majority of our history.
That might be controversial to some (especially here) but that’s just my take on what is a historical situation that kind of gets ignored. We all get to choose how far back you consider your representative ancestors are. I just go for the called ‘shotgun’ on the car seat approach. The older ancient people were more representative of our true situation for me.
Legit and accurate source?
Brythonic not Welsh. There never was a welsh kingdom that large.
17 comments
[deleted]
Shouldn’t “Welsh” be Britons
Oversimplified and inaccurate.
There’s lovely now
Wow that’s quite spectacularly bad
Amusingly so
Rumour has it there are still a few dick Picts over in Helgin running about…
Brythonic was spoken up to the Clyde/Tay line and probably beyond it by the Picts.
As someone mentioned Welsh and Wales is derived from Germanic for ‘Foreigner’.
Brythonic developed into Old Welsh around the time of this map and in the area of what is now Southern Scotland developed into the Cumbric language.
The oldest existing Welsh heroic poetry by Aneirin originated in Gododdin in what is now called Lothian dating from the 6th Century and the people of this region were/are called ‘Yr gwr yr hen ogledd’ in Welsh meaning ‘the men of the old north’, and the most recent genetic research seems to be saying that they are still there.
https://www.rcsi.com/dublin/news-and-events/news/news-article/2019/09/researchers-connect-irish-and-scottish-genetic-maps#
Hol up. You saying Wales held the most land in the UK at one point? I did not know that if it’s true.
Oops, All Welsh!
Not sure how they can be English colonies when England didn’t exist for another 400 years
Obviously ([as per comment from u/f8rter](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/s/vHwFcqCtR9)) calling them “English” is nonsensically ahistoric… but OTOH I love them being labelled “English colonies”.
Bloody English immigrants 😂
For the folk decrying the map as wildly in accurate. Kind of but you have to take into account that it’s clearly several decades old (at least).
More modern attempts in the same vein are more detailed but [broadly similar](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Major-events-in-the-peopling-of-the-British-Isles-See-Supplementary-Note-for-further_fig3_273782200).
The fact is that due to the comparative scarcity of sources we’re never going to get a full picture of what the division of the British Isles was like in the migration-era/early-medieval period. A major problem will always be precisely distinguishing between what polities controlled where at a given time and how this relates to culture of the local inhabitants.
Hopefully more accurate broad strokes is the best we can work towards.
Oh thank god, I’m not Welsh /j
Weren’t the Picts Brythonic rather than Gaels? The Gaels came over from Ireland and formed the Dál Riata in the West with which it’s theorised the Picts merged, or were assimilated into.
When you actually look at the name ‘Scotland’ in terms of who our descendants were, then you have to say we were named after the guys who arrived in the last 10 minutes. The patchwork quilt of tribes all over the British isles was our true legacy and was the normal situation for the majority of our history going back thousands of years. Tribes like the Dumnonii, Selgovae, Votadini, and many more were example of some first century tribes the Romans fought in Scotland. There was many unnamed more for millennia before them and the later Picts.
Some of these ancient Scottish tribes had lands that went deep into what is now England. There was no sense of Scotland/England to our ancient ancestors, as borders were tribal and fluid, not national. For millennia that was the way it was – and our true historical state – if time was the judge of that. The very idea of being Scottish or English is another ‘last 10 minute’ idea that bypasses our true legacy. The patchwork quilt of tribes all over the British isles is what we were for the vast majority of our history.
That might be controversial to some (especially here) but that’s just my take on what is a historical situation that kind of gets ignored. We all get to choose how far back you consider your representative ancestors are. I just go for the called ‘shotgun’ on the car seat approach. The older ancient people were more representative of our true situation for me.
Legit and accurate source?
Brythonic not Welsh. There never was a welsh kingdom that large.
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