Planet Normal: Best voyages from the festive Rocket 2023: Part 1 l Podcast

Planet Normal: Best voyages from the festive Rocket 2023: Part 1 l Podcast

Welcome to Planet normal the telegraph podcast with Allison Pearson hello and me Liam Halligan co-pilot Pearson and I are having a well-deserved Christmas break from steering the rocket of right thinking but to help keep you sane dear citizens of Planet normal during this festive period we’re bringing you some

Of our biggest interviews from our recent archive the discussions we’ve had on the flying Refuge of reasoned views now back in the Autumn Planet normal welcomed former Home Secretary and former Secretary of State for International Development pretty Patel onto the Rockets Allison and I caught up

With her on the fringes of the Tories Manchester Party Conference pretty Patel thanks a lot for joining us on planet normal I’m thrilled to be joining you both I really am thank you pretty on Sunday here at Conservative Party Conference it’s fair to say that Liz truss made a bit of a

Splash and you were there with her what happened so you know this conference actually feels very energized dynamic people like me have always been at the Forefront of you know being with the Grassroots Battle of ideas and that’s effectively what happened Liam so you saw we held something called a growth

Rally and it was good old-fashioned debate you know party political debate about what we conservatives in the conservative party do need to do to actually get Britain growing again but with this and this is incredibly important in the year’s time we could be in a general election so we want to be

Able to influence the manifesto so we can have literally a full-blooded conservative Manifesto that is based on our values beliefs our principles sound Money free markets capitalism the freedom to succeed all the positive issues around the economy that effectively help the country will help the country to thrive and grow pretty I

Wanted to ask you about democracy in the party a lot of Planet normal listeners and Telegraph readers are pretty fed up that the conservative party members elected Boris Johnson as leader he was ejected by MPS and they voted for Liz truss who was also booted out by MPS and

Replaced by Rishi sunak who has no wider mandate do you see a need to involve Tory members going forward more in the process and in determining policies so Allison the answer is absolutely and I’ve been a long-standing proponent of this I mean I even got myself elected to

The conservative party board in 2010 because I do believe we need much more democracy the Grassroots and as you know my background is I’m a Grassroots activist first and foremost I still say that rather than just sort of introducing myself as a politician because I started out of the Grassroots

I never actually wanted to be an MP I was always involved in the party in some shape or form but the voice of the Grassroots is incredibly important and Allison you’ve just hit the nail on the head you know we’ve had two democratically elected leaders of our party that basically were then removed

In a terrible way quite frankly through lots of gamesmanship shenanigans led by Westminster MPS and of course there should always be a golden thread from the Grassroots upwards to the MPS and I think that is certainly broken over not just recent years but certainly over

Some time back in the day my mp when I joined the conservative party was cesil Parkinson who was a great MP but I do remember and I’ve worked for former party chairman I worked for cesil actually when he became party chairman under William hay and you know those

Were the days that if your Association chairman phoned up the Member of Parliament you’d think KY something serious was going down you know they’re here to really have a go at me about something I’ve said the wrong thing in Westminster or I didn’t vote with the government on a particular issue now

That golden thread just doesn’t exist between the Grassroots and the MP and the activities in Westminster and we have to reclaim that we really do the level of disillusionment I think across the Grassroots is really being felt the conservative Democratic organization is really important in the sense that yes

We want to promote change we must have more democracy as say over who our parliamentary candidates are are the people that become our future MPS accountability in decision making even an influence in policy areas for the manifesto But ultimately what we saw last year should never happen again and

What we’re seeing with CDO we’re seeing a lot of people that would otherwise leave the conservative party actually registered their support with CDO and we need to keep them because these are the people that deliver our leaflets they Gass week’s activists you know they’re the heart and soul of the party because

We are at Tory conference here as you say probably the last major annual conference before the next general election as well as your rather mischievous meeting with Liz and indeed Jacob reog and ranold Gardner former cabinet ministers all of you on Monday on Sunday night I saw you at the CDO

Dinner the conservative Democratic organization dinner the CD is only one year old I must say I felt at that dinner if the atmosphere at the Liz trust meeting that you were part of was mischievous the atmosphere at the cdio dinner on Sunday night was and I say

This mindful that the room was full of conservatives the atmosphere was revolutionary pretty there was a lot of Celebration and joy and hope in the room but there was a lot of anger there is a lot of anger there really is I’m energized about conservativism I always

Have been you know I have a great amount of passion and belief in my party I’ve been around for a long time in the conservative party so I have a degree of a responsibility with CDO to bring some hope really to our members but they want change you

Know we cannot ignore that they want change they are absolutely gutted with what happened last year I’ve actually been speaking at a cdio event today and I gave a speech I take the view now I mean things are so serious the challenges we face in our country the

Prospect of K starma coming into number 10 you know I don’t want that I want a conservative Victory and I’m saying to all our members we’ got to stick together together let’s try and influence the right kind of outcomes post-party conference whether it’s on the economy the manifesto democracy in

Our party and I I am actually going to try and see the party chairman post conference now to have some of these important conversations we can’t do it in isolation we’ve got to work as a team and we have to work together but I want change and on behalf of our wonderful

Members we have to deliver some change for them otherwise politics Will just become centralized and too remote and I think we’ve seen that in the past with other political parties like labor effectively what happens when centralization grips political parties you know you lose your base you get even

More factionism and that is not good for our politics you were home secretary from 2019 to 2021 we know you tried to take a pretty tough line on immigration which was popular not just with conservatives but in the wider Country Now on November the 23d we are expecting

An announcement that the net immigration total for the past 2 years is is over 1 million people and I spoke to Al mem at migration watch today and Al says that that was an underestimate so how are conservative voters supposed to feel that the government they voted for whose

Manifesto said it would control or bring down the numbers of in Immigration has actually overseen a city the size of Birmingham coming in in the last two years so Alison I do think I I say this frequently we do have to differentiate between legal migration these are people

Legal migration and illegal migration we have to over the last few years I’d say three years post 2019 we do have to look at the fact that we have changed our system we do have a points based immigration system which effectively does enable the government to control

Who comes into the country and who leaves the country through the Visa routs that have been set up these are legal and legitimate Visa Roots it’s important to emphasize that people aren’t breaking laws by coming into the country a lot of them are sponsored they

Pay a lot of money for their visas and on top of that the immigration Health SE charge things of that nature and their net contributes to our country when I left last year in fact I was discussing this with some people in the home office recently we started a lot of work to

Look at the what I call the automatic levers that the government of the day the Home Secretary of the day has around how you can effectively dial all that back so it means making choices Allison some hard choices so 2019 we were very clear we brought in easier roots to the

For health people to come into the NHS Health and Care Visa routes I remember speaking about that in the 2019 general election we brought in Tech visas the request by the way of the chancer at the time all sorts of roots to basically help our economy and bring foreign

Direct investment in on top of this we’ve had some pretty big catastrophes that we’ve had to deal with Ukraine being one Afghanistan was just horrendous the whole operation pitting and removing people from Afghanistan and bringing them here and then of course bnos I was involved in the bno scheme

You know British Nationals overseas who actually were in Manchester so many of them have come to Manchester but there are some choices I’m not sure what the government is doing I’m you know we pick up bits in the newspapers that they might look at the student route because

Our student numbers are very high India now has overtaken China in terms of people coming from India to study in our universities it was China before so the home secretary could look at that there’s a lot of chat about dependence I’m not sure how that will work particularly for a doctor or consultant

Or a you know neurosurgeon coming over here they’re going to come with their family members they’re not going to come on their own but the government does have these levers of control and I actually think this is quite important that the government actually speaks about the powers that they do have to

Reduce migration sorry can I just say we were told that we were following the Australian points based system which has a much higher requirement for salaries and qualifications than ours ours is a very diluted requirement which means that a lot of people are coming in who

Are on or or below the average British wage which is not at all what the Australian points based system is which encourages people with you know kind of quite serious qualifications that are really needed by the economy Allison I understand what you’re saying but that is not quite accurate for the people

That have been coming over to the country I know your point about the salary threshold and the government is through the um Mac the migration advisory committee increasing the salary thresholds and that’s the right thing to do but through the points space system people have to be ened by their

Employers to come to the country they then have to pay thousands of pounds for their visas and also the various Health charges and surch charges on top of that these tend to be high rate taxpayers they’re not people on low incomes and low salaries that come your point about

The salary threshold for certain skill shortages occupational shortages is and there is a list of people where there is an occupational shortage list that’s where you are making the reference to and there are changes that are being made there and a lot of this I think this is quite important just to reflect

Upon this Liam your thoughts would be welcome on this as well is I have been pursuing or trying to push government when I was in government for a better labor market strategy we simply do not have a labor market plan and strategy for our country and I you know I’ve got

Background as a labor market Economist as well when you look at labor market on a monthly basis and where you see where the inflation is across particular sectors and wage inflation in particular you can see where the constraints are and where more people are coming in from

Overseas to fill those places an awful lot of that is skill shortage in basic but vital and extremely dignified professions just as a comment why you know let’s build more social housing the Tories can fire up the red wall other lower income areas build more social housing use that as a seedbed for

Apprentices for trades and so on that has has been a big theme of this conference migration as Allison said has been a big theme of this conference but the big daddy theme of this conference has been tax taxation is now at a 70-year high as a share of GDP it was

Very much the thrust again of that meeting on Monday where where you joined Liz truss and Jacob and Reynold ja wardner I thought the most interesting part of that aside from the fact that it was just an hour before the Chancellor’s speech and there were hundreds of people

Queuing outside who couldn’t get in it was literally standing room only see you I well I did get the biggest cheer according to gido Forks was an aside from ranal ranal is of course the leader of the conservative growth group on the backbenches backbench MPS who want more

Growth who are broadly supportive of what Liz was trying to do even if they understand that there were a lot of difficulties in in in how she did it and the delivery and so on he disclosed in front of a room full of the world’s press that the conservative growth group

I said it has about about 50 people and he said no actually it’s about 60 and a little light went on in my head KY 60 is the size of the government’s working majority and the conservative growth group you’re basically all saying if taxes go up at the Autumn statement if

Taxes go up at the budget as a share of GDP you guys aren’t going to vote for it you could literally stop the government Stone dead because if the government can’t get its Finance bills its money bills through Parliament it can’t govern that’s a no confidence issue so I don’t

Think it will get that far I’ll be very very candid I I don’t see it as a threat I actually see it from a slightly different perspective in the sense that what I think is really quite heartening about this conference particularly from the backbench perspective is that we’re

All saying the same thing we are standing up for who we are as conservatives and on the economy that is the greatest differentiator between us and the labor party we know what that means you know with the labor party that is absolutely crystal clear but if we

Can unify on this then we can actually bring about the change that we need to see at a macro level in Westminster influence the debates when it comes to Autumn statement so we have to be in that space and also we have to articulate to the country a vision that

Basically says 70-year high in taxation that is unacceptable but we can explain why we’re in this situation Ukraine and all the rest of it size of the state has grown too much as well but we have to have the solutions we’ve got to have the propositions to go forward which that

Fantastic discussion that we had at the rally yesterday coming back to the labor market but supply side reforms you know the construction the sector building more houses we cannot build more houses until we have people with more skills in our country and as a former employment Minister I remember the time when the

Apprenticeship Levy came in and you know it still doesn’t work properly there are no incentives it’s got all the wrong incentives we should actually be incentivizing employers the colleges to actually do more in this space we do have the solutions but we are actually going to have to peel back the layers of

The state to make all this happen and make it work you were accused of bullying when you home secretary by a senior civil servant claims that you of course strenuously denied now we’ve seen several ministers Dominic Rob being the latest example facing allegations of bullying from their civil servants which

To some observers look like a boss demanding that certain policies are put into effect Pronto pretty do you think it’s difficult for a minister to get what increasingly appears to be a woke left leaning civil service to carry out Manifesto pledges and would you favor moving to a more American System where

The incoming Administration brings its own officials so we’ve seen some shocking things quite frankly over recent years I think it’s got a lot worse Allison from everything that I’ve been reading also in the telegraph you have some very good reporters that are doing some inside reporting from

Whiteall exposing as you said the woke culture but actually deliberate intent not to deliver on an elected government’s priorities that is a massive problem I should just say for a little bit of context during my troubles in the department you know fresh off an election campaign in 2019 where we won

And secured an 80- seat majority foris and the people’s priorities and I I never Tire of calling our Manifesto naming it the people’s priorities I could see that it did upset you know a lot of our civil servants at the time across whiteall because they did not

Like brexit I think quite frankly they didn’t particularly like politicians like myself and Boris as well for a range of reasons we’re big campaigners we are in tune with the public in many ways we were bringing in change and it was difficult it was really difficult it

Is a lot worse now I hearing that from a lot of colleagues what I don’t like and I’ve also got a private sector background is that you know we are within our rights to ask for better performance we’re critical thinkers as well so challenging others in the right

Space in terms of you know how we question them how they’ve reached certain conclusions and submissions that they put forward to us that’s all legitimate that is absolutely legitimate but you know when we’re treated in a way in which that you overstepped we didn’t like your tone that is absolutely

Unacceptable you know we’re all working long hours and officials are as well we’re committed you know I certainly throughout my time in government and all the roles that I’ve had I’ve been committed to doing my job I believe in public service do this because I want to

Serve my country when you have people that really you know the heart’s not in it they clearly don’t like what they’re being asked to deliver that’s a problem and it does mean Allison I think we do have to bring in changes to the Civil Service you probably saw yesterday I

Think Jeremy Hunt said that he wanted to try and reform the Civil Service Shake It Up remove 64,000 civil servants that’s a hell of a lot isn’t it but we should have more power because as ministers we don’t have the power to hire and Fire I’ve got my own views on

That I think we will have to move to a system where you know you have the hearings and you can make political appointments and things of that nature because we need to be supported ministers have to be supported in delivering the job that they’re there to

Do pretty Patel hand on heart can the Tories win the next election I absolutely believe we can I remember the 2015 election actually post the Coalition you know some of us were quite grumpy about the Coalition years and all that kind of stuff and it Reen you know rejuvenated us

To literally go back out there and say we want a conservative majority we were hell for leather I think we have to be like that again I really do an 80- seat majority is a big majority in 2019 we know that we have to work hard to fight

For every vote there are a lot of people that probably look at us all now and feel a little bit disillusioned you know had Boris had Li we are where we are right now you said this you said that a lot of stuff has gone water under the

Bridge we have to win them back and we have to win their trust and confidence back and that’s not easy that is hard work we’re going to have to roll our sleeves up and get shoulder to the wheel and just get behind rishy and really focus on winning pretty Patel if no

Let’s say when you are the prime minister of the United Kingdom can co-pilot hallan be your chance for the ex cheer that’ll be an interesting discussion won’t it Allison are you offering to facilitate the negotiations she’s going to charge commission I thought she would did I mention I’d written a book

A favorite interview with Planet normal listeners was former head teacher Mike Fair cluff who I spoke to in October once seen as an education Pioneer by blending conventional education with be grills style beekeeping and hunting Mike was ostracized during the covid pandemic for being one of the few head teachers

Who dared to speak out publicly about the damaging impact of lockdown I started by asking Mike fair cluff when his alarm Bells began to ring so I remember being in my car and listening to Boris Johnson on the radio saying many of us will lose loved ones I was

Really worried because at that point there was no information with regards to how the vast majority of the population were at low risk of serious illness from covid particularly children and it was interesting because I I sent an email to my parents and said you know if it’s up

To you but if you’d like to keep your child off until we know what’s going on then then please do and quite a number did interestingly the people who since have complained and attacked me for um having the complete opposite view with regards to school closures and the vaccine roll

Out to children and masking Etc um were all Against Me closing the school because it wasn’t coming from on high nobody in Authority had said this is what you must do and this was when I first started hearing people like just parrots whatever they were told I’m not

Going to hang around for somebody to say what to do I’m just going to do what I want to do about four weeks I think after my initial response and reaction that I started to read and hear information given with regards to the severity of covid and the fact that it

Wouldn’t be a big problem for like most people and Chris witty actually specifically said that that was the initial response but it was uh in late 2020 uh early 2021 that I started to comment on the covid vaccine roll out to Children which was all been kind of moted at the time

So the UK kept its schools closed longer than any other European country except Italy Sweden never closed schools for under 16s at all in your view Mike was it pressure from the teaching unions that kept schools here shut for so long was it caution and weakness at the

Department of Education or what do you think it was why were our schools closed for so long so I don’t know the answer to that I all I can say is that there’s an excuse that the first lockdown was everything was new and no one what knew

What they were doing so they they just had to do it I don’t like to entertain any sort of quote conspiracy theory and just go on the facts that are available and and it was interesting because um the telegraph’s lockdown files was really insightful with regards to all of

This and it felt like it was there’s these sort of you know really like Matt Hancock in particular was making decisions which were politically motivated I think it’s completely reasonable and fair to say that the key decision makers everyone from Boris Johnson to rishy sunak to Matt hanok all

Of those sorts of people none of them it appears in retrospect were actually worried about the virus because they were all meeting in groups or having parties or in Matt Hancock’s having his um fling with his Aid and all the rest of it you know they were saying so so

You must all to the general public you must stay in your houses don’t leave unless you have to get medicine or food you can have an hour’s exercise and just when you’re out there just don’t stop well it was it was the double standard I

Mean if if you think about it I mean I look back now can you imagine I remember being in London and seeing this playground in quite a poor area of London and there were bolts and chains on the playground gate now can you imagine the impact on children children

Were anyway they weren’t as we have established they were incredibly low risk I should just remind listeners actually that the death rate from covid for those aged not to 19 is 0.03% that’s a 1 in 333,000 chance of dying teenagers are more likely to die of flu than Co but

Nevertheless Mike we did stop children’s sport on Saturday mornings we locked up playgrounds could you believe that was happening I mean as a head teacher obviously incredibly distinguished and and loving compassionate head teacher you must have known what that was all going to do yeah so what I couldn’t

Believe was the unions were pushing for uh school closures for masking the vaccination of children and it’s the fact that there were a a large number of teachers and some head teachers as well who spoke to me personally and sent me messages and said I you know really not

Happy about what’s going on thank you for speaking out but I’m not going to speak out because uh of fear of reprisals so there was that group who I I I think that’s that’s probably our one of our biggest problems in our country at the moment is people self-censoring

Out of fear on all manner of different things there’s the larger group who absolutely believed that it was the right thing to do there are a lot of people within the education profession who believe that lockdowns were saved uh millions of lives and they were necessary and it was necessary for

Children to make that sacrifice to protect adults and that’s what I feel most disappointed about with regards to the unions and many of my colleagues within the education profession they saw children as human Shields and so they felt it was necessary for children to take on that role can you just explain

So there were three whistleblowing complaints against you now were they made to East Sussex County Council and what form did the investigations against you take what what were you told they were made to East susex County Council and to the school so after this one in

In uh May 21 I had a second one in November 2021 and the common theme with the first and second one was my opposition to the covid vaccine roll out to Children East Sussex County Council my employer commissioned um an independent investigator to look into me

And I had a whole day of answering questions I was cleared of any wrongdoing because it was concluded that I have a right to lawful Free Speech the third one which came in November 2022 um the uh complainants again were saying that I was um spreading medical

Misinformation they also said that I was voicing anti-government messages on social media my mission was to try and communicate in a way where people who were un so parents of children who were undecided could make an informed decision that was my mission I think I achieved that

Because I haven’t had any parents come up to me and say that they disagreed this third complaint uh was much more Sinister because they raised the complaint under prevent which is the government’s counter extremism Department I was also reported to the department for Education counter extremism Division and to off stadon to

The children’s commissioner Etc uh the counter um disinformation units and you know the 77th Brigade Etc were eyes off your traditional you know Islamic terrorists and all the rest of it and onto domestic citizens who were questioning government policy on covid so there was a feel at that time uh that

If you dared question what was going on that you would be regarded as a dangerous e extremist for the third time I was cleared of any wrong doing in relation to the allegation and each time East Sussex County Council at the end of each investigation would say you have a

Right to free speech on this matter but then they would then entertain another whistleblowing complaint about exactly the same thing and this was the bit which kind of pushed me sort of over the edge as it were really because I you know I’ve never been in that position

Before and I just thought wow what’s going to happen is you know am I going to get my door kicked down by the anti-terror police or something my kids’s taken away I’ve got a young family got four kids 26y old and 19y old and two six-year-old uh twin daughters

And and my wife in the house and it was just like this is really really extreme you know I had a great reputation before it’s like you know like 19 years as head teacher 30 years in the profession and bearing in mind the things that I’ve done at the school have

Been previously so controversial that I would have expected people to have complained and maybe in retrospect think well you know yes I was just I was just going to come to that so you resigned as Headmaster of West rise in September alleging serious breaches of contract by

East Sussex County Council you say you consider yourself to be constructively dismissed did you feel you were unable to stay on yeah I said to East Sussex County Council right I can understand if I were to if they or the school were to receive a complaint about something else

They would need to investigate it you know but I said to them if you are were to receive the identical complaint with regards to my campaigning about the covid vaccine roll out to Children bearing in mind that I I I I feel that that’s possibly going to come back again

I think it’s it’s such a great role a great business model for big farmer and everyone else I can’t see why they wouldn’t want to continue it so I’ve you know I’ve wanted to continue to campaign and to uh exercise my right to lawful free speech on this matter and I said

Could you just say you know guarantee that if you got that exact same um uh uh complaint bearing in mind on three occasions you’ve told me that I have a right to free speech on that matter will you not uh investigate me and they said

That we we’re unable to to say that we will not investigate you so this was essentially using the uh in my view the the the whistleblowing process to Silence disapproved of views I have a right to lawful free speech this is clearly in in my view discrimination and

This is now the basis of a claim you’re taking to an employment tribunal in November 2024 that’s next year what are you hoping to get out of that I’ve got the brilliant support of the Free Speech Union and uh there’s the chief legal council there Brin Harris has been great

I’ve also got the most amazing barister on side called Paul Diamond who is the leading civil liberties barister in the country this is a case which could set a precedent in order to take it to the tribunal I’ve had to clarify what it is that I’ve been discriminated against so

I’ve had to clarify and describe what my philosophical belief is and my philosophical belief is as follows I have a strongly held philosophical belief in the importance of critical thinking freedom of speech and safeguarding children uh I think that’s particularly important now because what that basically means is I think about

Things and then I talk about things in the interest of safeguarding children and if you look at what’s happening in the education sector at the moment particularly around gender ideology or even going back to what I’ve been campaigning about throughout the pandemic so you know masks and the the

School closures and vaccine roll out to Children etc etc there are lots and lots and lots of colleagues as I’ve said who know that there are lots of things wrong wrong and who think about who think about these things and privately say I don’t really agree with what’s going on

But they don’t say anything about it which is that free speech aspect so they might be critical thinkers but they don’t exercise their right to lawful free speech and they certainly don’t then fulfill their legal OB obligation to safeguard children against harm this case could set a precedent moving

Forward for people in the workplace with regards to free speech it’s a very very important one for protecting children M were you surprised or disappointed by the failure of these organizations which designed for Children’s Welfare to speak out at the time and not only that but Jillian Keegan the education secretary I went

Through the roof she said recently that they couldn’t rule out closing schools again in the future I thought are you out of your mind woman were you disappointed it’s disappointing it’s also it’s virtue signaling so um it didn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that if you close down the economy

Uh repeatedly that it’s going to cause economic ruin and harm the most vulnerable in society including children what they’ve done is they’ve failed in their Duty I I apply that to ofstead to the Children’s Charities people’s need for self-preservation has trumped their civic duties the majority of people if

They are told by an authority figure to stay silent and not say anything they that’s what they’ll do and they’ll just think well someone else can sort it out and I think that’s one of the the biggest things that we need to work on and something that I’m kind of thinking

About and writing about at the moment actually Mike here on planet normal we think you’re a warrior we wish you well in your employment tribunal and we’ll talk to you about that later I think it’s hugely important for teachers to have the right to speak up on behalf of

Children we know you’re the most fantastic head and I sincerely hope you won’t to be lost to education in the future because we really need inspirational teachers like you Mike fairus thank you so much for coming on planet normal thank you very much indeed thank you

In this the first of a two part series, co-pilots Pearson and Halligan dig into the data files for some of their most explosive voyages on the rocket of right thinking, from 2023.

The rocket featured many guest appearances from big names in politics including previous Home Secretary, Priti Patel, live from the Conservative party Conference in October. She shared her thoughts on the ‘woke blob’ running Whitehall, and her hopes for a Tory victory in 2024.

Throughout 2023 your co-pilots have prided themselves in championing unheard voices and in October the rocket welcomed former head teacher Mike Fairclough who shared his heartbreaking and shocking story of how he has been ostracised and disgraced as a teacher for giving his opinion on school closures and vaccinations at his former place of work.

Read more from Liam: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/liam-halligan/ |
Read more from Allison: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/a/ak-ao/allison-pearson/ |

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