What are your thoughts on Nefertiti’s being in Germany while Egypt wants it back?
October 9, 2024
What are your thoughts on Nefertiti’s being in Germany while Egypt wants it back?
by Far-Worldliness6334
27 comments
Finders keepers
it is the most important issue for every single german. you cant leave the house without the neighbour asking you about your opinion on nefertiti. i havent slept for weeks, thats how outraged i am.
Should be returned
Give it back
[removed]
Never give nefer titis back. We keeping them tities.
Stolen* artifacts are an important aspect of Decolonization**, so I support their return. But I would like for it to happen in a conciliatory way if possible, e.g. first producing a replica to display in the German / European museum & making it easy for European scientists to get access to the originals.
*(Arguable in this case, but talking about the greater context. Our idea of Archeology and national identity has evolved in the last hundred years, and I perfectly understand that current Egyptians disagree with their ancestor’s decisions) **(while Germany did not, colonize Egypt, but Great Britain did 1859-1946 (1859 informally, 1914 formally) I am talking about the greater geopolitical context)
They are free to buy it.
I fail to see how Egypt is entitled to this, they allowed the archeologists to dig it up, after all. If the contract included a „but we get to keep it“ clause it’s the first time I’m hearing this.
As a Non German POC, as much as it sounds virtuous to say “Yeah everything should be returned back” , just look at the state of museums in a lot of countries in the middle east or even heritage sites and if we arent able to take care of the small percentage of things remaining in our disposal then I don’t think we should have the audacity to be asking the British or anyone for that matter to return the other things
It gets complicated with artefacts. Who has legal ownership or should have legal ownership and so on. Especially when it’s items which have changed hands over centuries if not millennia. I think, in general, artefacts should go to the country of origin which is free to lend it to exhibitions around the world. I also think Germany is far from the biggest offender considering how many artefacts were given back over the last few decades. The behaviour of the British Museum on the other hand is definitely disgusting when it comes to handing stuff back.
haha
Create a replica and return the real one. It’s not supposed to be in Germany in the first place. If it’s just standing in a museum to be looked at by people they can stare at a replica.
Egypt didn’t care about its heritage and let others do the work to retrieve their artifacts.
After others have put in the work but it actually turned out worthwhile, they want their share.
I get why’d they want items like these back. But unlike the Benin statues which were given back, these items weren’t stolen, so I don’t really see a moral obligation to return them.
Do those and other artifacts belong to a specific people or to a geographical region? I think basing it on a region is ridiculous, since land cannot have ownership on anything. And basing it on nation/people is also problematic; here I don’t think that the Ancient Egyptian people are the same nation/people as current Egyptians. Too much time has passed since then. Those groups speak totally different languages, have a totally different religion, have mostly different customs (mostly; female genital mutilation is for example ancient; some dishes have probably survived in some form), have totally different artstyles. The only things that really have survived is the region and the DNA. Can either of those be the justification on ownership of artifacts?
If someone found a bronze sword from 3000 years ago inside the borders of modern day Germany and were it in an Egyptian museum I wouldn’t care about it, since it isn’t really German.
It’s unfortunately a difficult topic.
See the Benin Bronzes for example, thousands of metal plaques that were taken from the royal palace of Benin, part of modern day Nigeria. Many of them were kept in German museums but were recently given back to Nigeria so that the Nigerian people would be once again in possession of their cultural heritage. But the Nigerian government, instead of displaying them in a museum as promised, just gave them all to one rich dude who keeps them locked away in his basement. So now museums around the world are gonna keep the ones they still have.
So Nigerians would’ve actually been more able to see their cultural heritage while it was in Berlin than they’ll ever be now that it has been returned.
I see these important artifacts much better protected here. Ask again in 50 years, and see if they have a stable democracy then.
The recent episode of the bridges podcast either with milo rossi or with both flint dibble and milo they talked about this.
Basics are, yes every artifact should be returned and most often countries receiving their artifacts back are willing to loan out the artifact to different museums and/or give some other artifact in return.
My opinion is that, yes absolutely artifacts should be returned and maybe just a faithful copy of it kept.
idgaf
I literally could not care less about their artifacts. They can have them all back for all i care. We got enough museums filled with german stuff. We do not need their artifacts.
At least that’s a relatively small statue that could be transported.
Iraq’s Ishtar Gate was demolished, taken to Berlin, and reconstructed there in the Pergamon Museum.
If something was stolen, it should be given back. If not, then people can buy or negotiate or whatever.
Another issue comes, but not in this case: who is entitled to what? For example, if archeologists dug up something that is from the Ottomans, but in some other region the Ottomans occupied, who should the artifact be returned to? Turkey? The country that now exists where it was found? What if the place where it was found was Ottoman when they dug it up, but now it’s a different country?
This is a complicated issue. There are truths to both sides, that being “ach well when we found it the Egyptians didn’t care”, ja, true. But now they care, that matters.
If the Egyptians would like it back I think it is very fair for them to purchase it from the museum, or negotiate a deal where a replica is made and given to one party or the other.
There are many legitimate arguments and concerns people can say, and I don’t think the right response is to automatically yell at someone who disagrees with you.
*The British Museum has entered the chat*
The western world destroyed enough culture around the globe. The artefacts that remain should all go back to the places of origin.
How come they didn’t put the money and time into uncovering artifacts themselves a hundred years ago if it’s so important to them?
27 comments
Finders keepers
it is the most important issue for every single german. you cant leave the house without the neighbour asking you about your opinion on nefertiti. i havent slept for weeks, thats how outraged i am.
Should be returned
Give it back
[removed]
Never give nefer titis back. We keeping them tities.
Stolen* artifacts are an important aspect of Decolonization**, so I support their return.
But I would like for it to happen in a conciliatory way if possible, e.g. first producing a replica to display in the German / European museum & making it easy for European scientists to get access to the originals.
*(Arguable in this case, but talking about the greater context. Our idea of Archeology and national identity has evolved in the last hundred years, and I perfectly understand that current Egyptians disagree with their ancestor’s decisions)
**(while Germany did not, colonize Egypt, but Great Britain did 1859-1946 (1859 informally, 1914 formally) I am talking about the greater geopolitical context)
They are free to buy it.
I fail to see how Egypt is entitled to this, they allowed the archeologists to dig it up, after all. If the contract included a „but we get to keep it“ clause it’s the first time I’m hearing this.
As a Non German POC, as much as it sounds virtuous to say “Yeah everything should be returned back” , just look at the state of museums in a lot of countries in the middle east or even heritage sites and if we arent able to take care of the small percentage of things remaining in our disposal then I don’t think we should have the audacity to be asking the British or anyone for that matter to return the other things
It gets complicated with artefacts. Who has legal ownership or should have legal ownership and so on. Especially when it’s items which have changed hands over centuries if not millennia.
I think, in general, artefacts should go to the country of origin which is free to lend it to exhibitions around the world. I also think Germany is far from the biggest offender considering how many artefacts were given back over the last few decades. The behaviour of the British Museum on the other hand is definitely disgusting when it comes to handing stuff back.
haha
Create a replica and return the real one.
It’s not supposed to be in Germany in the first place.
If it’s just standing in a museum to be looked at by people they can stare at a replica.
Egypt didn’t care about its heritage and let others do the work to retrieve their artifacts.
After others have put in the work but it actually turned out worthwhile, they want their share.
I get why’d they want items like these back. But unlike the Benin statues which were given back, these items weren’t stolen, so I don’t really see a moral obligation to return them.
Do those and other artifacts belong to a specific people or to a geographical region? I think basing it on a region is ridiculous, since land cannot have ownership on anything. And basing it on nation/people is also problematic; here I don’t think that the Ancient Egyptian people are the same nation/people as current Egyptians. Too much time has passed since then. Those groups speak totally different languages, have a totally different religion, have mostly different customs (mostly; female genital mutilation is for example ancient; some dishes have probably survived in some form), have totally different artstyles. The only things that really have survived is the region and the DNA. Can either of those be the justification on ownership of artifacts?
If someone found a bronze sword from 3000 years ago inside the borders of modern day Germany and were it in an Egyptian museum I wouldn’t care about it, since it isn’t really German.
It’s unfortunately a difficult topic.
See the Benin Bronzes for example, thousands of metal plaques that were taken from the royal palace of Benin, part of modern day Nigeria. Many of them were kept in German museums but were recently given back to Nigeria so that the Nigerian people would be once again in possession of their cultural heritage. But the Nigerian government, instead of displaying them in a museum as promised, just gave them all to one rich dude who keeps them locked away in his basement. So now museums around the world are gonna keep the ones they still have.
So Nigerians would’ve actually been more able to see their cultural heritage while it was in Berlin than they’ll ever be now that it has been returned.
I see these important artifacts much better protected here. Ask again in 50 years, and see if they have a stable democracy then.
The recent episode of the bridges podcast either with milo rossi or with both flint dibble and milo they talked about this.
Basics are, yes every artifact should be returned and most often countries receiving their artifacts back are willing to loan out the artifact to different museums and/or give some other artifact in return.
My opinion is that, yes absolutely artifacts should be returned and maybe just a faithful copy of it kept.
idgaf
I literally could not care less about their artifacts. They can have them all back for all i care. We got enough museums filled with german stuff. We do not need their artifacts.
At least that’s a relatively small statue that could be transported.
Iraq’s Ishtar Gate was demolished, taken to Berlin, and reconstructed there in the Pergamon Museum.
If something was stolen, it should be given back. If not, then people can buy or negotiate or whatever.
Another issue comes, but not in this case: who is entitled to what? For example, if archeologists dug up something that is from the Ottomans, but in some other region the Ottomans occupied, who should the artifact be returned to? Turkey? The country that now exists where it was found? What if the place where it was found was Ottoman when they dug it up, but now it’s a different country?
This is a complicated issue. There are truths to both sides, that being “ach well when we found it the Egyptians didn’t care”, ja, true. But now they care, that matters.
If the Egyptians would like it back I think it is very fair for them to purchase it from the museum, or negotiate a deal where a replica is made and given to one party or the other.
There are many legitimate arguments and concerns people can say, and I don’t think the right response is to automatically yell at someone who disagrees with you.
*The British Museum has entered the chat*
The western world destroyed enough culture around the globe. The artefacts that remain should all go back to the places of origin.
How come they didn’t put the money and time into uncovering artifacts themselves a hundred years ago if it’s so important to them?
wait, we have neferiti?
Make a copy, give original back.